Proposed street tire changes that will be voted on at tonight's meeting

MikeK · 03-31-2009, 11:40 PM

Jim Gandy and Randy Jones have come up with a last minute proposal to change the street tire rules for this year.

A lot of people have been complaining about the cost of a full set of race tires, but would still love some way to try them out at our events. We are concerned that this may reduce attendance at events, so Jim and Randy got together and came up with a way to make race tires more accessible to people without breaking everyone's budgets.

The proposal is to introduce a new multiplier that will be applied PER TIRE. This value will be set to 0.99369. For someone running with 4 street tires, the overall multiplier they will get is 0.99369 x 0.99369 x 0.99369 x 0.99369 = 0.975, which is what the factor is currently set to, so there will essentially be no handicap change for drivers with 4 street tires.

However, the implication is that competitors can now run a mix of street and race tires on the car. For example, on a front wheel drive car, have 2 race tires up front and 2 street tires in the rear, for improved acceleration and reduced understeer. Or another suggestion is to run 2 race tires on the left side of the car and 2 street tires on the right side of the car for clockwise circuits for improved turning performance. Using this setup, the handicap would be 0.99369 x 0.99369 = 0.98742. This means that on a course where a car in the same class on race tires does 60 seconds, a car with 2 street tires only needs 59.244 to win, and a car with 4 street tires needs 58.499 to win.

It would be entirely up to the competitor to decide which corners of the car would have which tire type, meaning people are free to optimize the setup for their own car and the course at each event. As with the current street tire rules, it is up to the competitors to declare what type of tires are on the car (Preferably during registration! It helps in the bus if we do not have to search for missing/misclassed vehicles when drivers show up at the start line!)

As far as class letters for timing and scoring goes, Randy has suggested that the best way to implement this is to replace the old "T" letter in front of the class designation with "T1", "T2", "T3" or "T4", indicating the number of street tires that are on the vehicle. For example, a BSP car with 2 race tires and 2 street tires would be "T2BSP". Jim's alternate proposal was to have a T for each street tire on the vehicle, so under this scheme, the class would be "TTBSP".

If you have any input on these new rules, please email or call Jim or Randy before tonight's meeting, or better still, show up to vote on whether we should go ahead with this idea, whether the handicaps are correct, and how to display the new class on the side of the vehicle. Remember, whatever is decided will take effect at the first event this weekend, so we need your input!

Dean · 04-01-2009, 09:03 AM

Wouldn't it make more sense to have the modifier dependent on if the wheel is driven or steered, both, or neither?

Thus classes would be STTDTT for a rear wheel drive, SDTTNTT for FWD, SDTTDTT for AWD and SDTTTT for AWD/AWS plus normal class letters.

I could see a circumstance where the system might be played with no regard to the racers actual budget/costs. On a predominantly left had course, a one race tired SDRTNTT FWD car might have an unfair advantage over a three race tired SRRDTR RWD car.

Jim, can you organize some testing on this?

solonut · 04-01-2009, 09:57 AM

^^^^

If we do that, I'll start a class letter shop.....and get rich!!

MPREZIV · 04-01-2009, 11:22 AM

I don't think the side of my car is long enough for all of Dean's proposed letters...

Kevin M · 04-01-2009, 12:02 PM

Aren't we concerned that people with stuttering issues would get an unfair advantage?

TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTDS

Dean · 04-01-2009, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin M

Aren't we concerned that people with stuttering issues would get an unfair advantage?

TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTDS

Be serious.

goingfast · 04-01-2009, 04:15 PM

i have not seen this many tttt since i was last at goldfinger

Mark Sipe · 04-01-2009, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean

Be serious.

I don't think this is possible in a thread that proposes putting a factor per street tire in place ...

Kevin M · 04-01-2009, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Sipe

I don't think this is possible in a thread that proposes putting a factor per street tire in place ...

Seems it is after all...

Dean · 04-01-2009, 07:06 PM

After much deliberation and discussion in the general meeting, this change was adopted by the membership by a narrow margin.

Mike, we assume you will be prepared to train the new timing crew on this on Saturday and that the scoring software is ready to support the changes for Sunday's event.

Pat, get your Vinyl cutter running...

rusty c@c · 04-01-2009, 07:58 PM

4 sale lots of 1 and 2 race tires lots of size. only left sides at this time

JimU · 04-01-2009, 10:17 PM

I must assume this is an April fools joke

scarabracer · 04-02-2009, 01:17 AM

I have calculated that i can gain an edge by running a coctail mix of old bias ply slicks, raidial slicks, d.o.t. racers and street tires. Any guesses what kind of consideration I can get here??? hahahahahaha

S2kreno · 04-02-2009, 07:19 AM

still no snow tire handicap. damn.

jmanfoo · 04-02-2009, 08:03 AM

I didnt get free until a little after 7 last night so I didnt make it to the meeting. I usually dont go but I wanted to vote on this issue because I dont like the idea. Seems to me that this provides an unfair advantage to RWD and FWD vehicles. Back in the day vehicles with turbos and AWD had to use smaller tires and turbos because they had an unfair advantage. I feel that two wheel drive cars can now gain the advantage with grip @ half the handicap. Doesnt make sense to me.

MattR · 04-02-2009, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmanfoo

I didnt get free until a little after 7 last night so I didnt make it to the meeting. I usually dont go but I wanted to vote on this issue because I dont like the idea. Seems to me that this provides an unfair advantage to RWD and FWD vehicles. Back in the day vehicles with turbos and AWD had to use smaller tires and turbos because they had an unfair advantage. I feel that two wheel drive cars can now gain the advantage with grip @ half the handicap. Doesnt make sense to me.

Jason, please tell me you're kidding...Do you know what the date was yesterday?

Kevin M · 04-02-2009, 09:48 PM

Caught two... not bad Mike!

jmanfoo · 04-03-2009, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattR

Jason, please tell me you're kidding...Do you know what the date was yesterday?

The meeting was the first wednesday of the month, right? I posted on thursday... I think... I know today is friday...

MattR · 04-03-2009, 07:01 PM

I was just making sure you knew this was an april fools joke.

S2kreno · 04-04-2009, 10:06 AM

Looking at the surface at Stead today I bet we end up on studded tires

Lysle · 04-04-2009, 04:56 PM

or jackstands...

Kevin M · 04-04-2009, 11:24 PM

I'd like to propose a Rally Tire handicap of 1.25, because they'd kick ass out there.

03-31-2009, 11:40 PM	#1
MikeK Street Prepared Real Name: Mike Khamis Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 296 Car: Class:	Proposed street tire changes that will be voted on at tonight's meeting Jim Gandy and Randy Jones have come up with a last minute proposal to change the street tire rules for this year. A lot of people have been complaining about the cost of a full set of race tires, but would still love some way to try them out at our events. We are concerned that this may reduce attendance at events, so Jim and Randy got together and came up with a way to make race tires more accessible to people without breaking everyone's budgets. The proposal is to introduce a new multiplier that will be applied PER TIRE. This value will be set to 0.99369. For someone running with 4 street tires, the overall multiplier they will get is 0.99369 x 0.99369 x 0.99369 x 0.99369 = 0.975, which is what the factor is currently set to, so there will essentially be no handicap change for drivers with 4 street tires. However, the implication is that competitors can now run a mix of street and race tires on the car. For example, on a front wheel drive car, have 2 race tires up front and 2 street tires in the rear, for improved acceleration and reduced understeer. Or another suggestion is to run 2 race tires on the left side of the car and 2 street tires on the right side of the car for clockwise circuits for improved turning performance. Using this setup, the handicap would be 0.99369 x 0.99369 = 0.98742. This means that on a course where a car in the same class on race tires does 60 seconds, a car with 2 street tires only needs 59.244 to win, and a car with 4 street tires needs 58.499 to win. It would be entirely up to the competitor to decide which corners of the car would have which tire type, meaning people are free to optimize the setup for their own car and the course at each event. As with the current street tire rules, it is up to the competitors to declare what type of tires are on the car (Preferably during registration! It helps in the bus if we do not have to search for missing/misclassed vehicles when drivers show up at the start line!) As far as class letters for timing and scoring goes, Randy has suggested that the best way to implement this is to replace the old "T" letter in front of the class designation with "T1", "T2", "T3" or "T4", indicating the number of street tires that are on the vehicle. For example, a BSP car with 2 race tires and 2 street tires would be "T2BSP". Jim's alternate proposal was to have a T for each street tire on the vehicle, so under this scheme, the class would be "TTBSP". If you have any input on these new rules, please email or call Jim or Randy before tonight's meeting, or better still, show up to vote on whether we should go ahead with this idea, whether the handicaps are correct, and how to display the new class on the side of the vehicle. Remember, whatever is decided will take effect at the first event this weekend, so we need your input!

04-01-2009, 09:03 AM	#2
Dean Assistant Regional Executive & Chief Instructor Real Name: Dean Benz Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Reno Posts: 827 Car: '04 Subaru WRX STI Class: TSM	Wouldn't it make more sense to have the modifier dependent on if the wheel is driven or steered, both, or neither? Thus classes would be STTDTT for a rear wheel drive, SDTTNTT for FWD, SDTTDTT for AWD and SDTTTT for AWD/AWS plus normal class letters. I could see a circumstance where the system might be played with no regard to the racers actual budget/costs. On a predominantly left had course, a one race tired SDRTNTT FWD car might have an unfair advantage over a three race tired SRRDTR RWD car. Jim, can you organize some testing on this? __________________ Brake early, you can always brake less. if you brake late, you can't brake MORE!

04-01-2009, 09:57 AM	#3
solonut Street Modified Real Name: Pat Housel Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Fernley,Nv Posts: 874 Car: Miata Class: ES/ST	^^^^ If we do that, I'll start a class letter shop.....and get rich!! __________________ Any bad day of racing is better than a good day of work Last edited by solonut; 04-01-2009 at 10:01 AM.

04-01-2009, 11:22 AM	#4
MPREZIV Jack of all trades Real Name: Cory Davis Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Sparks Posts: 299 Car: Yours. Class: 05 W / 55 TT-A/X	I don't think the side of my car is long enough for all of Dean's proposed letters... __________________ I can't afford a vacation, so I'm just gonna drink until I don't know where I am...

04-01-2009, 07:06 PM	#10
Dean Assistant Regional Executive & Chief Instructor Real Name: Dean Benz Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Reno Posts: 827 Car: '04 Subaru WRX STI Class: TSM	After much deliberation and discussion in the general meeting, this change was adopted by the membership by a narrow margin. Mike, we assume you will be prepared to train the new timing crew on this on Saturday and that the scoring software is ready to support the changes for Sunday's event. Pat, get your Vinyl cutter running... __________________ Brake early, you can always brake less. if you brake late, you can't brake MORE!

04-01-2009, 12:02 PM	#5
Kevin M Street Modified Real Name: Kevin McDaniel Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 892 Car: 1993 Impreza wagon Class: 19 FP	Aren't we concerned that people with stuttering issues would get an unfair advantage? TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTDS

04-01-2009, 04:15 PM	#7
goingfast n00b! Real Name: Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 1 Car: Class:	i have not seen this many tttt since i was last at goldfinger

04-01-2009, 07:58 PM	#11
rusty c@c Novice Real Name: rusty Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: new plymouth id Posts: 12 Car: john deer Class: slow	4 sale lots of 1 and 2 race tires lots of size. only left sides at this time

04-01-2009, 10:17 PM	#12
JimU Novice Real Name: Jim Uchytil Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 14 Car: 02 Corvette Z06 Class: SM2	I must assume this is an April fools joke

04-02-2009, 01:17 AM	#13
scarabracer Novice Real Name: Jeff Steele Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Sparks Posts: 14 Car: 78 Datsun 280Z Class: XP	tire factor disastor. I have calculated that i can gain an edge by running a coctail mix of old bias ply slicks, raidial slicks, d.o.t. racers and street tires. Any guesses what kind of consideration I can get here??? hahahahahaha

04-02-2009, 07:19 AM	#14
S2kreno Street Prepared Real Name: Gina Pogol Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Galena Posts: 408 Car: A pretty yellow S2000 Class: none :)	still no snow tire handicap. damn. __________________ Beware of greasy corner where lurk skid demon. Cease step on, approach slowly, round cautiously, resume step on gradually.From an official Japanese guide for English-speaking drivers, 1936

04-02-2009, 08:03 AM	#15
jmanfoo Street Prepared Real Name: Copper Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 189 Car: 1990 Audi Coupe Quattro Class: SM	I didnt get free until a little after 7 last night so I didnt make it to the meeting. I usually dont go but I wanted to vote on this issue because I dont like the idea. Seems to me that this provides an unfair advantage to RWD and FWD vehicles. Back in the day vehicles with turbos and AWD had to use smaller tires and turbos because they had an unfair advantage. I feel that two wheel drive cars can now gain the advantage with grip @ half the handicap. Doesnt make sense to me.

04-02-2009, 09:48 PM	#17
Kevin M Street Modified Real Name: Kevin McDaniel Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 892 Car: 1993 Impreza wagon Class: 19 FP	Caught two... not bad Mike!

04-03-2009, 07:01 PM	#19
MattR Solo Competitor Real Name: Matt Roy Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 573 Car: Class:	I was just making sure you knew this was an april fools joke.

04-04-2009, 10:06 AM	#20
S2kreno Street Prepared Real Name: Gina Pogol Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Galena Posts: 408 Car: A pretty yellow S2000 Class: none :)	Looking at the surface at Stead today I bet we end up on studded tires __________________ Beware of greasy corner where lurk skid demon. Cease step on, approach slowly, round cautiously, resume step on gradually.From an official Japanese guide for English-speaking drivers, 1936

04-04-2009, 04:56 PM	#21
Lysle Novice Real Name: Lysle Turnbeaugh Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Carson City Posts: 12 Car: Formula Vee Class: A Modified, Formula Special	or jackstands...

04-04-2009, 11:24 PM	#22
Kevin M Street Modified Real Name: Kevin McDaniel Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 892 Car: 1993 Impreza wagon Class: 19 FP	I'd like to propose a Rally Tire handicap of 1.25, because they'd kick ass out there.

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