Need a Little Help with what Class MY BMW IS?

[BMW_TUNER]

I have an 1989 BMW 325is with the Following
No Aero Mods.
A larger later model BMW Engine
Larger later model BMW Brakes and suspension
Camber and Caster Plates Front
Camber and Toe Adjustments rear
Coilovers
A strut tie bar front
17x8.5 and 17x9.5 rims (these may be removed to change class)
Carbon Fiber Hood
All Poly Bushings
Custom/Aftermarket exhaust
The car weighs aprox 2700 with a newly installed auto-power roll bar.

Any help is appreciated.

I ran novice a couple of time last year and I would love to be able to compete in the upcoming year but the rules are still a little confusing to me.

[BMW_TUNER]

I guess I will be XP

[van]

You have the red M3'ed 3series right?
You can come play in SU, I think there will be at least 2 cars to compete next year.

[BMW_TUNER]

I would really like to be in an aggressive class but my engine swapped BMW bumps me out of everything.

[van]

They are all aggressive, you just need to find the one your car fits in.
If you didn't have to change the crossmember (or relocate any of the suspension connection points?) you might be able to run in SM.

[solonut]

Street Mod(SM)

[BMW_TUNER]

Crossmember is factory. Suspension points are factory. I thought SM would not allow for an engine swap.

[BMW_TUNER]

I know that they are all aggressive but xp only has 3 participants whom do not make it to a lot of events.

[Dean]

SM allows any motor from the same manufacturer or Family of manufacturers for cross branded cars.

Come play with the Subarus. :)

[BMW_TUNER]

I am in I just read the SM rules and I am comfortable with running SM as long as all of the class is ok with it. You subbie guys are fast.

[Dean]

In theory if you ran less than 1/2 the events, you could run Novice again.

[BMW_TUNER]

I am Going to try and run all the events.

[Dean]

I am Going to try and run all the events.All I was saying was that if you did not compete in more than 1/2 the events last year, you are still eligible to run all this coming year in Novice if you so choose.

[BMW_TUNER]

Oh ok. I would like to jump right in and compete in a class so t sounds like SM will be the one.

[miataman]

You SM guys can correct me if I am wrong, but comming from a very similar SSM class. You can't swap just any engine into your car just because it is from the same manufacture. The rules are such that if you have an Eagle Talon TSI you could put a Eclipse GTX engine in it, not because these are the same car, but becuase they are the same engine. It is also legal to put the V8 of a Z28 Cammaro into a Cammaro origonally equiped with a V6 (same chassie and availble in that config. from the factory so long as an LS1 is used). I don't believe it is leagal for a Subaru SVX to run an engine from an STI. Also not legal to run an LS7 in the formentioned Commaro as it was never offered with this engine. You are restricted to run the same block and head from the "family" of engines availible for your car i.e. Audi A4 B7 chassie availible with a "family" of three engines: 2.7T V6, 3.2 NA, and 1.8T. You could also source a couple of these engines from Volkswagon if it was convient as the 1.8T is the same engine between the two manufactures. You cannot run any engine just becuase it is your same make, hence any BMW engine is not nessassaraly legal in all other BMW's. Ask your self would it be ok if this 325 had the 333HP V6 from the E46 M3? Anything inside the "family of engines" is up for grabs as well as forced induction barring a couple stipulations like displacment as well as ECU's.

[Kevin M]

Unless there's an SSM addition specifically for that subclass, you can definitely put any Subaru engine into any Subaru car, e.g. STi EJ257 into a 2001 RS, or an EG33 into a Justy, or a Titan engine into a 240Z. The engine must come from a car of the same manufacturer as the recipient car, or must be a partnership type thing like the Diamond Star Motors 4G63s.

[Kevin M]

Ed, this means you can ditch that crazy, finicky turbo setup and drop a formula Mazda 2.3 liter from Cosworth in there. ;)

[BMW_TUNER]

I think I am still good for SM. Also BMW has never made a V6 and very strange older version of my block was available in an e30 that was produces in south Africa. It was a BMW production 335.

http://www.fastestlaps.com/car_BMW_333i_E30.html

[miataman]

Section 16.1 page 106, from the 2010 solo rule book, says "Engine block must be a production unit manufactured and badged the same as the origional standard or optional engine for that model... swaps involving makes related only at a corprate level are not reconized as equivilants."
http://www.scca.com/documents/Solo_Rules/2010_scca_solo_rules.pdf
I read this to mean that only at the model level is a swap legal, at the corprate level it is not leagal. If it wasn't an option for your car then it is not leagal. It says that you can go to other nations for a swap, so you could do a JDM swap on a Honda civic for example so long as that engine was availible for your car there. There is a reason I have stayed with my finiky engine. The same rules apply for both SM and SSM.

[Dean]

Section 16.1 page 106, from the 2010 solo rule book, says "Engine block must be a production unit manufactured and badged the same as the origional standard or optional engine for that model... swaps involving makes related only at a corprate level are not reconized as equivilants."
http://www.scca.com/documents/Solo_Rules/2010_scca_solo_rules.pdf
I read this to mean that only at the model level is a swap legal, at the corprate level it is not leagal. If it wasn't an option for your car then it is not leagal. It says that you can go to other nations for a swap, so you could do a JDM swap on a Honda civic for example so long as that engine was availible for your car there. There is a reason I have stayed with my finiky engine. The same rules apply for both SM and SSM.You are misinterpreting it. It says any engine block form the manufacturer of any engine for your model.

So if you have a Dodge crapbox that only ever came with a 4 cylinder if you can fit the Viper V10 in, you can run it.

At one point a SM car to beat was a MR2 with a Solara turbo V6 in it or something like that.

The brand partnership applies to things like the Subaru WRXs that were also Saab 92s or Eclipses that were also Talons so you could pick any engine from either manufacturer.

[miataman]

Here it is, interpretation is ultumately left up to the competitor. I am still not convinced.

Engine block must be a production unit manufactured and badged
the same as the original standard or optional engine for that model.
Badges that exist as marketing aliases for the manufacturer
will be recognized as equivalents. Swaps involving makes related
only at a corporate level are not recognized as equivalents. Models
produced as a joint venture between manufacturers may utilize
any engine from any partner in the joint venture, provided that an
engine from the desired manufacturer was a factory option in that
particular model (e.g. Eagle Talon available originally with either a
Mitsubishi or Chrysler engine, may use any motor from Chrysler
or Mitsubishi). This allows engine blocks manufactured as production
units for sale in other countries such as Japan or Germany.

[BMW_TUNER]

It is a legal BMW engine.

[Kevin M]

I see. I suppose it's possible a protest committee would rule a Legacy H6 ineligible as an Impreza motor for example. I would be surprised if they did however; the intent of the manufacturer-specific language is clearly to keep the options for engine swaps open. And since in the case of a BMW, the model is "3 series" so any M3 engine block would be legal. The use of the word "model" in the rule may be erroneous.

[miataman]

The 333hp M3 engine was never offered for that model 3 series and hence is not leagal for that car. That's how I interpret the rules, we will have to just disagree here. I believe that the "manufature language" is intended to prevent the use of all engines a manufacture produces. Swaps involving makes related
only at a corporate level are not recognized as equivalents.

[BMW_TUNER]

Sweet I am going with the new m3 v8.

[Dean]

The 333hp M3 engine was never offered for that model 3 series and hence is not leagal for that car. That's how I interpret the rules, we will have to just disagree here. I believe that the "manufature language" is intended to prevent the use of all engines a manufacture produces. Swaps involving makes related
only at a corporate level are not recognized as equivalents.It is not about disagreement, go look at the national SM competitor cars. Engine swaps to ones that were never in a given model are commonplace, the Solara Turbo in the MR2. I have run in SM since the class was created and been through all these discussions.

You are misreading the sentence.

"Engine block must be a production unit manufactured and badged the same as the original standard or optional engine for that model."

It is also preceded by this:

"Drivetrain and related components (induction, ignition, fuel systems, etc.) are UNRESTRICTED except for the following limitations:"

They do not use the words like UNRESTRICTED lightly! If they only wanted you to use engines from a specific model, they would never have used it.

So all that has to happen is that the motor is badged the same as that of the original or any option for that model. So if an optional 3 cylinder economy engine for your Miata carried a Mitsubishi badge you could then put an EVO motor in your car. As it never had that as an option, you can only use ANY Mazda badged engine ever produced for anything.

In this case, his car is a BMW and had a BMW engine and he can put any BMW manufactured engine from ANYTHING ever made into the car as long as he does not break any other rules doing so.

You have to remember the intent of SM and realize its rules are not like S. SP, etc. rules which are you can only modify what we let you. SM is more of an anything goes as long as you don't violate a couple safety, weight, handling and common sense rules.

They SM rules used to be much shorter until people started putting huge wings hanging off all parts of the cars and other silly stuff.

[BMW_TUNER]

It is not about disagreement, go look at the national SM competitor cars. Engine swaps to ones that were never in a given model are commonplace, the Solara Turbo in the MR2. I have run in SM since the class was created and been through all these discussions.

You are misreading the sentence.

"Engine block must be a production unit manufactured and badged the same as the original standard or optional engine for that model."

It is also preceded by this:

"Drivetrain and related components (induction, ignition, fuel systems, etc.) are UNRESTRICTED except for the following limitations:"

They do not use the words like UNRESTRICTED lightly! If they only wanted you to use engines from a specific model, they would never have used it.

So all that has to happen is that the motor is badged the same as that of the original or any option for that model. So if an optional 3 cylinder economy engine for your Miata carried a Mitsubishi badge you could then put an EVO motor in your car. As it never had that as an option, you can only use ANY Mazda badged engine ever produced for anything.

In this case, his car is a BMW and had a BMW engine and he can put any BMW manufactured engine from ANYTHING ever made into the car as long as he does not break any other rules doing so.

You have to remember the intent of SM and realize its rules are not like S. SP, etc. rules which are you can only modify what we let you. SM is more of an anything goes as long as you don't violate a couple safety, weight, handling and common sense rules.

They SM rules used to be much shorter until people started putting huge wings hanging off all parts of the cars and other silly stuff.

Dean is my new personal hero. I will hold off on the BMW v10 for now as to not cause to much commotion.

[dknv]

The SCCA website Solo Rules section has a FAQ, which includes the following general statement about SM: ( http://cms.scca.com/documents/Solo_Rules/Solo_FAQ.pdf )

Street Modified – This is the top tier of the “street” classes. This class allows engine swaps as long as the engine is made by the same manufacturer as the car. You may also add turbo/superchargers, camshaft upgrades, and any suspension upgrades as long as it uses the factory attachment points.

Also -
For more specific questions and/or information concerning the Solo® Rules,
contact:
- Doug Gill, SCCA® Solo® Competition Manager at dgill@scca.com
- Brian Harmer, SCCA® Solo® Technical Assistant at bharmer@scca.com
- or call 1-800-770-2055.


I have availed myself of their help before, and would encourage any SCCA member to do the same - particularly if in doubt about something.

[Kevin M]

The 333hp M3 engine was never offered for that model 3 series and hence is not leagal for that car. That's how I interpret the rules, we will have to just disagree here. I believe that the "manufature language" is intended to prevent the use of all engines a manufacture produces. Swaps involving makes related
only at a corporate level are not recognized as equivalents.

An M3 and a 325i are actually the same "model" just like a V6 Mustang and a Mustang Cobra are the same model, or a Neon and Neon SRT-4. They are differing trim packages, which is not addressed by the SM rule. Like Dean has pointed out repeatedly, National championship winning SM cars have had exotic engine swaps while winning and are perfectly legal. If Mazda made a V8 somewhere, you could stuff it into your Miata if you wanted. In fact, the Mazdaspeed 6 engine might not be a terrible idea... ;)

[Kevin M]

Dean is my new personal hero. I will hold off on the BMW v10 for now as to not cause to much commotion.

That would be perfectly legal in the class, and completely AWESOME! :devil:

[miataman]

I think that if it is infact the intent of the rules to allow all engines under any given make to be legal in SM and SSM then they did a terrible job of writing the rule book. If you can define the word "model" as Manufacture or Make then ok. Other wise I define model as Chassie code like a 996 porche or 997, or C5 corvette vrs. a C6. I don't feel it is per the rules to put a Jaguar engine in a miata because Ford shard the miata engine with its Escort and ownes a large portion of Mazda as well as Jaguar. For that matter, per Dean, the 2011 supercharged Ford cobra engine could be put in a miata. The rule book as written is the absolute final word governing our cars and class. It is not what someone else had done in the past that tells us what we can do in the future. It will be interesting to write or call some of these SCCA types as suggested by DKNV and see what they have to say. I will share that info with everyone.

[sperry]

Ed, that's just what the rules specifically address with the "corporate level" comment in the rules. If there's only an ownership level relationship, and not a technology level relationship, the swap doesn't count. So you can't put a Vette motor in a WRX just because GM bought 6% of Subaru in the late 90's. But you can put a 3000GT motor in a Dodge Stealth because of the Diamond/Star Motors relationship between Chrysler and Mitsubishi. And you can put any Mitsubishi motor in any other Mitsubishi. But you can't cross the lines and put an EVO motor in a Dodge K car... those models weren't a cross-company shared platform.

So, to summarize:

It's okay to put any motor from one manufacturer in any other car made by that manufacturer (including out of market motors, i.e. EDM, JDM, etc). It's okay to put any motor in a model from another manufacture's model if they were a shared platform. Any other motor swaps are not legal.

I think the point of the rule was to allow swaps within a single manufacturer... but then the Conquest/Starion guys got pissed off they couldn't get spare parts from the other cars meanwhile their competitors were mixing and matching Ford motors up the yin-yang. So they added the exception for shared platform swaps.

The only exception to the above is that you apparently can't convert from pistons to rotors or vise-versa according to a post earlier by Kevin. So you can't slap a 3 rotor in a Miata. :(

[miataman]

Nicely put Scott, can you agree not on expirence or history, but just by reading the rule book letter for letter that it says, anything standard or optional for your model. Not anything availible within your make? Re-read the rules that I posted carefuly. To me it is clear. I believe that what we are really talking about here is the definition of the word "model." If model means "Manufacuture" then I can agree with you. If "model" means chassie code then I cannot agree. I agree with all your comments about "corporate level."

Engine block must be a production unit manufactured and badged
the same as the original standard or optional engine for that model.
Badges that exist as marketing aliases for the manufacturer
will be recognized as equivalents. Swaps involving makes related
only at a corporate level are not recognized as equivalents. Models
produced as a joint venture between manufacturers may utilize
any engine from any partner in the joint venture, provided that an
engine from the desired manufacturer was a factory option in that
particular model (e.g. Eagle Talon available originally with either a
Mitsubishi or Chrysler engine, may use any motor from Chrysler
or Mitsubishi). This allows engine blocks manufactured as productionunits for sale in other countries such as Japan or Germany.

[Dean]

Nicely put Scott, can you agree not on expirence or history, but just by reading the rule book letter for letter that it says, anything standard or optional for your model. Not anything availible within your make? Re-read the rules that I posted carefuly. To me it is clear. I believe that what we are really talking about here is the definition of the word "model." If model means "Manufacuture" then I can agree with you. If "model" means chassie code then I cannot agree. I agree with all your comments about "corporate level."

"Engine block must be a production unit manufactured and badged
the same as the original standard or optional engine for that model."It has nothing to do with the definition of Model! I have read that section many times. You are misunderstanding what the word model is applied to.

Let's diagram that sentence. Where are the english teachers when you need them.

'block must be manufactured and badged' is the core sentence. It is not "block must be standard or optional" or "block must be the same as"

"manufactured and badged" is then specified as "being the same as"

What must they be the manufacturer and badge be the same as? Those of "the original or optional engine for that model"

Only the manufacturer and badge of the engine has to be the same as any engine available for that model. Nothing else about the block has to have anything to do with the that model.

And again, you have to remember that all of this is only to clarify the word UNRESTRICTED in the base rule!!! This is not the rule in itself, but a sub part.

[tom1977]

^dean, would it be safe to say that you CAN change motor mounts to support a "same manufacturer engine" into a car that came with a completely different platform? Such as your analogy of "dodge base model" to a "dodge viper engine"???

[Timothy5509]

^dean, would it be safe to say that you CAN change motor mounts to support a "same manufacturer engine" into a car that came with a completely different platform? Such as your analogy of "dodge base model" to a "dodge viper engine"???


LOL, this tread ran right up your street Tom.

[Kevin M]

Motor mounts are completely unrestricted in SM, so you can do whatever you want with them.

[tom1977]

LOL, this tread ran right up your street Tom.
up my street? what, am I dong something nutz???;) I figured that I would be SU, because i have no interior...but enough about my junk... thanks kevin, I figured so....:)

[MikeK]

What class would I be in if I swapped this engine into my car?

http://www.dina.kvl.dk/~nikrjel3/diesel_engine_6s70me-c.jpg

[miataman]

You should probably proof read your posts before you start trying to give an english lesson. That way you preserve your credability. The rule book was not written by a poet and does not need to be disected like a poem. It just says model. Like the model of your car. Origoinal standard (block) or optional (block) for you model. That's what it says.

[Dean]

You should probably proof read your posts before you start trying to give an english lesson. That way you prserve your credability. The rule book was not written by a poet and does not need to be disected like a poem. It just says model. Like the model of your car. Origoinal standard (block) or optional (block) for you model. That's what it says.In plain English it says original or optional manufacturer and badge not block. And I think you meant proofread, English, preserve, credibility, dissected and original. When you are going to be critical of someone's analysis of the language, you might try spell check. ;)

[Dean]

What class would I be in if I swapped this engine onto my car?Fixed and class=DNS

[miataman]

I make sence, I don't spell

[miataman]

I think the class would be F U, for Freakin Uber, of course.:D

[dsmith]

Ed, in this instance the SCCA's meaning of "model" doesn't mean something like Mazda-Miata, or Chevy-Corvette like in "What model of Jeep is that?", but model as in the corporate name on the parts list: like Chrysler, Chevrolet, or Mazda, or Nissan, etc. It means you can stuff anything that is manufactured by Mazda (piston only, though) under the hood of your Miata and run in SM, but of course you can't stuff in a Nissan, or Chevy, or anything manufactured by someone other than Mazda (except perhaps a shared block/platform from Ford). Look under the hood of the current hot SM Rx7 of Eric Streilncks (I think that's close to how he spells his name) and you find a three rotor engine, something that was never offered in the RX 7 but only in the Japanese market Cosmo. Most of the other fast SM cars have similar engine swaps - a Nissan SE-R that has a Lexus V8, etc. It's too bad Mazda never made a v8, you could make an in-house Monster Miata and still run SM.

[miataman]

Well, like I have said in previous posts, if the definition of model is Manufacture then OK. Otherwise I, like everyone else in the world, think of model as the model of the car. I.e. mazda 626. I will write and get an "official" answer when I have time, it will probably turn out in favor of everyone else in this forum. I would say that the SCCA has done a terrible job in this instance describing the intent of the rule. We shouldn't have to debate like this.

[Mustang Fan]

So according to the rule book, the model is the manufacture of the car? HUH? I mean REALLY? I dont think so and I dont care what it says about badged engine and so forth. The model is the model, ie: Ford Mustang GT, model is the Mustang, not the Ford. Get it yet? I can not take any engine and put it into any car that is made by the manufacture just because they made it. Rule says model, period. For example, I can put a 5.4 supercharged cobra engine in a V-6 mustang because, well its the same model and it was an OPTION. It sounds like the rule has been interpeted by some liberal from California, thus the V-6 Solara engine in the MR-2. As far as I know, that engine was never an option for the MODEL........ the MR-2, get it yet? WOW.

[Dean]

So according to the rule book, the model is the manufacture of the car? HUH? I mean REALLY? I dont think so and I dont care what it says about badged engine and so forth. The model is the model, ie: Ford Mustang GT, model is the Mustang, not the Ford. Get it yet? I can not take any engine and put it into any car that is made by the manufacture just because they made it. Rule says model, period. For example, I can put a 5.4 supercharged cobra engine in a V-6 mustang because, well its the same model and it was an OPTION. It sounds like the rule has been interpeted by some liberal from California, thus the V-6 Solara engine in the MR-2. As far as I know, that engine was never an option for the MODEL........ the MR-2, get it yet? WOW.Model still means the same thing as it always has you guys are just misunderstanding what the word is being applied to.

Only the manufacturer and badge from the original or any optional engine for that model have to match the manufacturer and badge of the replacement engine! Nothing else has to be the same. Number of pistons, displacement, induction method, etc... They are all UNRESTRICTED!!! Read the whole section rather than just that subpart of the rule. It does not stand on its own!!!

This has been discussed ad nauseum on SCCA Forums and countless other resources for SM. Go research it if you do not believe it.

[Mustang Fan]

So as long as the engine manufacture is the same as the swamp engine manufacture, its a legal swap? So were does the model and having to be an option to that model come in to play? Your interpetation says it doesnt matter... So why have the rule then? Just say any engine swap is legal as long as its the same manufacture. Seems pretty simple.

[tom1977]

If the debate is model meaning manufacturer, than the word "model" should be changed to "manufacturer" If I confused these two words at an intelligent parts store, there would be a significant difference. FWIW, I will take the words as I know them from an AUTOMOTIVE point of view, not some 3rd grade english report...Manufacturer does not mean model, period.

[Dean]

So as long as the engine manufacture is the same as the swamp engine manufacture, its a legal swap? So were does the model and having to be an option to that model come in to play? Your interpetation says it doesnt matter... So why have the rule then? Just say any engine swap is legal as long as its the same manufacture. Seems pretty simple.Some car models have standard and optional engines from different manufacturers. You can use a replacement engine from any manufacturer that matches any engine available for your car model. For example, the Mustangs at some point where available with 4 cylinder engine if that engine was made by Mitsubishi, the optional V6 was made by Ford and the V8 option by Cosworth, you could replace any of those original or optional motors with ANY motor made by any of those manufacturers. Only the badges have to match. That is why you can put a turbo charged Solara V6 in an MR2. You can drop a Viper V10 into a Colt, etc... At some points in history it was far more common in Europe and Asia for cars to have engine option engines different manufacturers some of which didn't even build any cars. Right now, a bunch of VWs have Audi engines and vice versa in the same model line. You won't see it in the marketing materials but you will on the parts themselves.

And again, you are thinking about this as if this was a rule in S or SP which it is not. It is a subpart of a SM rule in which the base rule says UNRESTRICTED. It is just a clarification of how crazy you can go, not a rule unto itself. The base rule would say any engine from that model not UNRESTRICTED if that was the intent.

In the next section they clarify the multi brand piece. Mitsubishi eclipse = Eagle Talon = Plymouth Laser in the early days. Same model car by 3 manufacturers so you can put in an engine from any since it was a true cross brand model it was not just some legal blending of the two brands at some management or ownership level.

And if you think it is so easy to right a clearer rule, go ahead and try. The SM advisory committee and SEB would love to see it. The existing rule is from years of trying to clarify it. Nobody has been able to do better so far.

[miataman]

Ok I have read this passage so many times that I have memorized it. Let me try it your way in simpler terms. "Any engine that is made and badged the same as the standard engine or any optional engine for your model." Manufacture= Who built the engine, Badge= Could be who manufactured it, or bought it and is now calling it theirs, Model= Your car. So Ford Tauras SHO. The manufacture is actually Yamaha the badge is Ford. I believe then that this engine would not meet the rules to placed in a Mustang. All mustang engines, standard and optional, were Manufactured by Ford and Badged Ford. Rules say that Manufacture and Badge must both be the same. If this is true, the rule book is a total POS.

[Dean]

I'm done. If you guys don't believe Debbie, a National champion, myself a national and divisional competitor 4 or so years out of 10 in SM, then go look it up yourself on the FAQ Debbie mentioned, SCCA.com, SCCA Forums, FastTrack archives, Wikipedia, or at one point there was a Street Modified web site created by the creators of the class.

My last salvo... Most of the SM rules up to where we are talking about with annotations...

The Purpose is important, READ IT!!!

"16.0.A. PURPOSE
To serve as a membership recruitment and retention tool by providing
a natural competition outlet for auto enthusiasts using streetable sport
sedans equipped with drivetrain and suspension modifications that are
beyond those allowed in the Street Prepared category."

SP allows for swap of engines from other years and option levels within the same model. This clearly says drivetrain modifications beyond those of SP. Hmmm.

"16.1 ALLOWED MODIFICATIONS
A. All Stock, Street Touring, and Street Prepared category modifi cations
are authorized. Except as noted by these rules and the referenced
rules, vehicles must be as originally delivered including all road-go-
ing components such as lights, wipers, interior, heater, etc.
B. Competitors may pick and choose between all Stock, Street Touring,
Street Prepared, and Street Modifi ed category allowances when pre-
paring an SM car. Apparent confl icts between inherited rule sets from
16.1.A shall not prohibit any specifi c inherited allowance. Allowances
inherited from 16.1.A may not incorporate SM-specifi c allowances.
Foreign spec parts may not be used to substitute for parts which are
required to remain stock."

This says you can already do anything you want from S,ST, and SM!!! If you can already do the swaps you guys are claiming the next part says in SP, why would they need the next part at all???

"D. Drivetrain and related components (induction, ignition, fuel systems,
etc.) are unrestricted except for the following limitations:
1. Engine block must be a production unit manufactured and badged
the same as the original standard or optional engine for that mod-
el. Badges that exist as marketing aliases for the manufacturer
will be recognized as equivalents. Swaps involving makes related
only at a corporate level are not recognized as equivalents. Mod-
els produced as a joint venture between manufacturers may utilize
any engine from any partner in the joint venture, provided that an
engine from the desired manufacturer was a factory option in that
particular model (e.g. Eagle Talon available originally with either a
Mitsubishi or Chrysler engine, may use any motor from Chrysler
or Mitsubishi). This allows engine blocks manufactured as produc-
tion units for sale in other countries such as Japan or Germany.
2. Maximum engine displacements per class are specifi ed in Appen-
dix A."

D: Driveline is Unrestricted with these limitations
_D.1 Badges match something close to whatever might have been in it from the factory.
_D.2. Displacement limits. Why would they need displacement limits if they were already limited to the original or optional engines?

Come on guys. SM is not like S and SP. It is as close to a catch all for for modified street cars they could write rules for without making it P or M...

[Kevin M]

SM is essentially SP, with extremely liberal engine and drivetrain rules. That's the intent of the class. It's meant to take a good handling car from SP and add as much horsepower as you can with very minimal restrictions.

[sperry]

Sigh. Around and around we go... here's the simple breakdown:

Engine block must be a production unit manufactured and badged the same as the original standard or optional engine for that model.

Read it right to left... take the model of the car you have, get a list of all the manufacturer badges that build motors that ever went into the model of car you have, you can use any production unit engine block manufactured under those badges.

So, if you have a Taurus, it came with engines made by Ford and Yamaha. So you can legally put any block made by Ford or Yamaha in it.

If you have a Mustang, it came with engines made only by Ford. So you can legally put any Ford block into a Mustang. Yamaha motors don't count.

Badges that exist as marketing aliases for the manufacturer will be recognized as equivalents. Swaps involving makes related only at a corporate level are not recognized as equivalents. Models produced as a joint venture between manufacturers may utilize
any engine from any partner in the joint venture, provided that an engine from the desired manufacturer was a factory option in that particular model (e.g. Eagle Talon available originally with either a Mitsubishi or Chrysler engine, may use any motor from Chrysler or Mitsubishi). This allows engine blocks manufactured as production units for sale in other countries such as Japan or Germany.

The rest of this is just to say that when making up that list of allowed manufacturers, you can include stuff like dodge/chrysler/plymouth if you have a Neon because they were aliases. You *can't* include makes at only the corporate level (like a Jag motor into a Mustang because Ford owns Jag at the corporate level). You can mix and match motors from manufactures that were part of a joint venture in building your car (Starion/Conquest, 3000GT/Stealth, Porsche/VW on the 914, etc). And you can include engine blocks that were available in non-US markets as well.

For example:

You have a Eagle Talon. It's joint venture between Chrysler and Mitsubishi. It was also sold in various markets as an Eagle/Plymouth/Mitsubishi. So you can put any Eagle, Plymouth, or Mitsubishi motor in the car. So yes, you could run an EVO motor in a Eagle Talon. Or a Mopar 426. You can even use a Viper motor because Dodge/Chrysler is an alias for Eagle/Plymouth.

But if you have a Neon, you can't use the DSM connection to swap in an EVO motor because the Neon itself never had the Mitsubishi connection.

Regarding the whole "Legacy motor into an Impreza"... clearly that's allowed. Imprezas came with Subaru motors, so any Subaru motor is legal. SVX motors into RS's are actually popular swaps, and are SM legal.

SM is *really* open when it comes to engine blocks. That's what the rule says, and how it's been interpreted since day 1 by SCCA and competitors.

[tom1977]

...seems cleared up. thanks old tymers!

[BMW_TUNER]

I really do appreciate All the help. Now can I run a giant supercharger?

[miataman]

I'll let it rest. I feel that it is the intent of the rules to allow anything and everything, just becuase everyone seems so agreed on this. However it doesn't ever say that very well in the rule book.

[jim.gandy]

Yes, the SM rules are very liberal, but not "anything and everything" goes. My POS Sunbeam Alpine, with it's Mazda RX-2 engine and RX-3SP transmission, can only run in E Modified, even though it's a street car. (That's why I specified unlimited modifications in our new Vintage Solo rules.) I frankly don't understand what the reasoning was behind the SM rules as they now stand. A Viper motor in a Neon chassis is okay? If you say so...

Certified old-timer speaking here: Back in the day, I used to be able to give a newbie a 30-second overview of the Solo classing system, and he/she was good to go. Stock, Street Prepared, Prepared and Modified -- simple enough. I submit that the discussion in this thread is proof enough that the national classing system has grown into a monster. Or do you all actually like it?

[Kevin M]

And hilarity ensues some more:

- Per the SMAC, the following rule change proposal is being submitted for member comment:
- Replace 16.1.D.1 with the following:
“1. Engine blocks must be from production automobiles. Engines must meet minimum production quantities of 1,000 units built for street use, spanning all models of cars so equipped. Motorcycle, snowmobile, marine, or other engines of non-automobile design are not permitted. This allows engine blocks manufactured as production units for sale in other countries such as Japan or Germany.”

The intent of this proposal is to allow cross-make engine swaps into Street Modified vehicles, using engines produced in sufficient quantities that replacement parts are readily available. Subframe restrictions are not expanded from the existing rules. (ref. #3313)

[miataman]

This could open endless possibilities, and the wording is super clear. Well put by Jim, we shouldn't have to pour over the wording in our rule book. I always thought that our rules were written by a bunch of racers not a bunch of lawyers.

[Kevin M]

Racers do a better job of finding loopholes and pushing limits of rules than lawyers ever could.

[AlexR]

You know the rule book actually Defines Model right?

12.3 MODEL
A group of cars of a given make which have virtually identical bodies
and chassis but are readily distinguished from other models of the same
make by virtue of a major difference in body appearance and/or chassis
design. The names by which the manufacturer designates these
groups have no bearing on this definition even though two groups may
be designated identically.


So there you go, to SCCA autoX Model = chassis so i could not swap my 2005 STI Block into my 93 and call it SM legal. Sure its the same model name as per subaru, but its not the same chassis. i could swap any block subaru puts into 2004-07 impreza into any other 2004-07 impreza . but not into a legacy and not into an 01 impreza (different chassis)

I think that also means you can't swap an 05 STI block into a 05 Impreza Wagon, while badged as the same model by subaru, they have different bodies / chassis. ... rarr.

Merry Christmas

Tom hope you run in SM2 next year :devil:

[tom1977]

SM2??? I was thinking SU, I dont want interior... merry christmas to all as well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dsmith]

Yes, the SM rules are very liberal, but not "anything and everything" goes. My POS Sunbeam Alpine, with it's Mazda RX-2 engine and RX-3SP transmission, can only run in E Modified, even though it's a street car. (That's why I specified unlimited modifications in our new Vintage Solo rules.) I frankly don't understand what the reasoning was behind the SM rules as they now stand. A Viper motor in a Neon chassis is okay? If you say so...

Certified old-timer speaking here: Back in the day, I used to be able to give a newbie a 30-second overview of the Solo classing system, and he/she was good to go. Stock, Street Prepared, Prepared and Modified -- simple enough. I submit that the discussion in this thread is proof enough that the national classing system has grown into a monster. Or do you all actually like it?

Just like the tax codes: something simple that has gotten so complex that even those who write the rules don't fully understand all of them.

[BMW_TUNER]

I guess I will run SM and it won't matter because I will be no where near the top. If I ever do well I will expect to have this argument start all over.

[miataman]

That's the spirit!!!

You will be fine this argument was not over your entry into SM just the hypothetical legality of engines.

[Skyhorse]

"From 1968 until 1999, Fuji Heavy industries was 20% owned by Nissan (http://www.renoscca.org/wiki/Nissan), who acquired the stake in 1968 during a period of government-ordered merging of Japanese auto industry firms in order to improve competitiveness against foreign companies under the administration of Prime Minister (http://www.renoscca.org/wiki/Prime_Minister_of_Japan) Eisaku Satō (http://www.renoscca.org/wiki/Eisaku_Sat%C5%8D). During their ownership, Nissan was primarily interested in its bus manufacturing division and lent automaking expertise to Subaru"
does this mean i can put a WRX motor in my 510?:devil:

[Dean]

"From 1968 until 1999, Fuji Heavy industries was 20% owned by Nissan (http://www.renoscca.org/wiki/Nissan), who acquired the stake in 1968 during a period of government-ordered merging of Japanese auto industry firms in order to improve competitiveness against foreign companies under the administration of Prime Minister (http://www.renoscca.org/wiki/Prime_Minister_of_Japan) Eisaku Satō (http://www.renoscca.org/wiki/Eisaku_Sat%C5%8D). During their ownership, Nissan was primarily interested in its bus manufacturing division and lent automaking expertise to Subaru"
does this mean i can put a WRX motor in my 510?:devil:No, but drop a bus engine in there if you want. ;)