Buy vs. Build, and the pain of set-up

[dknv]

Gina's thread got me thinking about experiences I've had as I've learned autox set up. (My experiences are probably only 5% of many others' on this forum). Thought it would be interesting to read about learnings in one thread. I hope others will contribute what they've learned, because this knowledge may also help enlighten and show some paths that have been taken along the way. And while I agree that the 'nut behind the wheel' is the primary thing to tune up, I don't believe that it's only a sequential path -- I think there's room to set up the driver and set up the car, concurrently, and some car setup changes can make the journey of progress more fun.

I made the decision at the time I bought my wrx, to mostly do it myself; paying for things I couldn't do or couldn't get help with, and using advice that was sometimes from strangers. Now I'm on my 3rd autox car, none of which were sorted from the get-go (some might say the current one still isn't :P). There is tons of information on the web, and at first I didn't know what to use and what to throw away. I cross-checked with others I knew, for some of the things I wanted to buy or try. Some of these people had background in what I was asking about, others have mechanical aptitude and experience, and there have been a couple of renegades along the way who told me, "let's try it" (along with an implicit "and see what happens").

Some of my mistakes have included:

- a lugnut I cross-threaded; because I insisted on getting race wheels and tires, and wanted to learn to swap them myself;
- race wheels that were heavier than my stock wheels (not good);
- a 'race exhaust' that was heavier than my stock one (not good though it sounded cool),
- a too-stiff front sway bar that wouldn't let the car turn-in;
- brake dust from race pads that I didn't clean off right away and became embedded in my wheels,
- fluids that were blamed by the dealer's service dept for part failure,
- brake failure, with pieces coming off on course (don't chide me too hard, Pat!) because I failed to check wear more often from more aggressive brake pads

Stock Class - Autox:
In order, the setup I like today is 0) finding a trusted mechanic or someone to help me get the rest of this done; 1) get a good alignment (I started out with what others suggested, good enough for the early days; but this is a multi-year learning that is subject to change, and could be a topic in and of itself); 2) competitive tires; 3) upgraded shocks; 4) adjustable front sway bar; 5) lighter exhaust; 6) competitive brake pads / brake fluid.

I know I still have a universe of things to learn, and I welcome feedback. Let's just keep in mind, that what works for one person may not be the right answer for another.

[sperry]

I don't think I have the time to list all the mistakes I've made along the way. But the short, non-specifics, list is:

- Got involved with an untrustworthy shop. It was a good deal when it started, but the mechanic I trusted ended up partnering with someone that had no qualms about selling parts off my racecar to other customers. Wasted 18 months of time with the car down, and nearly 2 years and a lawsuit before things were settled, and even then the payout I got never really made me whole.

- Over-modded my car, not just in terms of spending money on useless crap that didn't help, but also in terms of building a car that was much faster than my driving ability. It took a really long and frustrating time to "grow into" my car. I could have been a better driver much sooner had I stopped building the car when it was in STX trim, and I could have saved myself a lot of time and money that would have been better spent playing with the car instead of working on it.

- Over-drove my car. This was probably the hardest/most expensive mistake I've made, and unfortunately I've made it more than once. I've been racing in simulators since the early '90s, and one thing that never happens in a simulator is a $2000 bill because you ignored the oil temp gauge for just one more lap. In real life, I never really picked up on the idea that I can't just hammer on the equipment 110% the whole way without having very deep pockets.

But those mistakes did teach me some very valuable lessons, even if I had to learn them the hard way:

- First, don't trust anyone until they've proven themselves to you personally. Sure, recommendations from people you know/trust go a really long way, but it's better to take baby steps with someone new working on your car than to jump in with them on a large project before they've proven themselves.

The corollary to this: don't do work on the car you can't do yourself. Sure there are times when something breaks you simply can't fix yourself, and times when it's just more cost effective to let the pros handle it, but for voluntary mods, you should understand the job front to back, and know how to do it right yourself it need be. For example... don't run a built motor unless you're willing to build it yourself, don't slap coilovers on a car if you can't swap them in the garage if you have to, don't run big brakes that no mechanic will do a brake job on unless you can change pads/rotors/fluid at home. Or to put it another way: if the mods you "need" to make the car as fast as you want are above your mechanics skill level, you should be buying a car that's faster from the factory. Don't mod a Subaru into a Porsche... just buy the Porsche. And if you really want to step up to the next level anyway, learn the skills required to do the mod yourself instead of just sending the car off to the shop for butchery.

- Second, modding a car should be done methodically and with specific goals in mind. I did a lot of crap to my car just because I wanted to make my car fast/cool. A lot of the stuff did not address specific goals... I just wanted to make the car "badass" in general terms. It's very difficult to achieve synergy with a bunch of aftermarket parts if you're just slapping everything you can find online on the car. Instead, it's much better to know the car, be able to drive it close to the limit, then address the specific issue you want to address, and then go back to learning/evaluating the car.

- And the most important lesson I learned: racecraft. Learning to back off and live to lap another day, learning to know when you're beat, learning to turn off the competitiveness for now, etc. has been extremely difficult for me, and has resulted in more than one expensive blown race motor. But in the longer run, being able to take a step back from competition and not have the perpetual frustration of trying to fix the stuff I was breaking results in being overall a happier person. Now I get just a much enjoyment from the few track days and PDX instructing as I did from competing, but I don't have the frustration and cost of trying to push the car so hard it breaks.

But here's the rub: I don't think it's very easy to learn the lessons above without making all the mistakes I've made. Sure I can blather about this stuff 'till I'm blue in the face to someone new to the sport, and they can probably learn some of it, but like most lessons you don't really learn until you fail on your own. So while I wouldn't encourage anyone to follow the path I've gone down at the same scale (unless you too would like to spend Porsche Turbo dollars several times over on a little gussied up econo-box) I would suggest building something cheap that you can afford to write off if things don't work out with it. And certainly don't build a car if the act of building it itself isn't rewarding on its own. If you don't like turning a wrench, just buy something ready to go.

In the long run, I don't know if I'd do it all the same or not. On one hand, I did waste a tremendous amount of money and time. On the other hand, I've probably learned more about cars, mechanics, fabrication, welding, driving, physics, chemistry, etc than I learned about computers/engineering in 6 years of college. Also, nearly all of my closest friends today I've met through racing, including (indirectly) my fiancee. And the accomplishments I'm most proud of, the hardest problems I've solved, have all been racing related. Those things I'd never trade for the money I could have saved had I gone down a more conservative path.

Boy, that was a long rambling post... what have you started Debbie?!

[zpeed]

I love to drive fast on the track. I wish I can buy Porsche GT3 or Ferrari Challenge and start with the fast car ready to go but money always a big problem.

That why before I buy my S2000, I knew that it will be drive on both street and track. Heck I did my first track day at RFR when it less then 2000 miles. I smoke my stock pads on the first day so I upgrade the pads. Then I burnt the rotors so I make a brake duct. There are many brake duct kit for sale online for $300+. Sure it's engineer and easy but $$$$ again. I make my duct out of parts from Home Depot. After many many trip and a whole weekend, it cost me less than $50.

It's only a couple S2000 that track and cross. So I'm happy to share what ever I know. I did not known too much but I can give you my opinion.

I want a new coilover NOW but in reality maybe in 2-3 years. I happy we have RFR back on schedule. Sorry for rambling and thank you for reading this if you did not skip it. :lol:

[S2kreno]

Nat, you'd love a Lotus. And be better at exploiting its advantages than I was. But since I now have a cheap car I'm dying to make mistakes with it ;)

[Dave Deborde]

Thinking back to when I started in Solo II (a long way back:P) I had no idea what I was getting into. I had already modified the suspension on the trusty 240Z so had to run in Street Prepared even though the car was not fully prepped to SP. That, of course lead to additional modifications like an engine swap and coil over suspension and a roll cage to stiffen the chassis. Never really did everything possible to make the car competitive but still a fun car that has served well for over 15 years.

Would I do it again, probably but I agree whole-heartedly with what Scott wrote. It would be best to start in a class that limits the modifications and spend more time having fun and learning to drive and less time spending gross amounts of money and time working on building the car. And, I think that applies to SCCA Club Racing as well as Solo. You don't need to have Top Time of the Day to be competitive in class and have a blast at an event. Some of the most enjoyable times I have had in Solo have been driving different cars like Debbies RX-8 this past weekend at the Western States Solo Championship in Wendover. I certainly was not the fastest driver in class but fast enough to be competitive and fast enough to experience the extreme thrill and the 45 second rush that is Solo competition. THANK YOU DEBBIE for the opportunity!

[dsmith]

An advantage to running a Stock class car my entire career is not being able to blow the kids' college funds on speed parts: do the shocks, front sway bar, cat-back, tires and you're done. This lets you concentrate on improving the nut behind the wheel, and not the car. Of course, the disadvantage is that your car will eventually be obsolete and you need to go out and buy a new one.

Slapping speed parts on a car will always raise the question: is it that new widget that got me closer to the top of the time charts, or my driving? If I were going to sink a bunch of money in my car (which, unfortunately, I can't) I think I'd seek out cars that have similar set ups and add-ons and ask if I could drive them, then see if that particular combo of parts suits my driving style. A try before you buy approach. It's nice to know what something will do to your car before you slap it on. An example: I got to reading the RX 7 forum and decided I really needed a larger rear sway bar for the 7 when I was doing Time Trials with it. Everyone said it was the way to go, so I bought one and put it on; nearly killed myself at RFR with it. It took away the understeer alright, but turned the car into a drift machine and I was chasing my rear end all around the track. A scary mistake.

[dknv]

...Boy, that was a long rambling post... what have you started Debbie?!I liked it! As I read it, I'd get to the next paragraph, and think, "oh yeah"; then to the next, "oh yeah", and on.

I really appreciated this point: ..modding a car should be done methodically and with specific goals in mind ..

What I'm wondering, is whether there are new people who are thinking about setting up their cars, and may benefit (saving time and money) from any of these lessons-learned?

[Cody]

I bought my 2003 WRX, new, and it has been my only car ever since then. I bought it because I read some good reviews and I hated chaining up when I went snowboarding (I lived in the Bay Area at the time). I had never modified a car of my own, other than adding audio equipment but once you start researching online, and join a couple car forums, mods are the #1 topic (aside from funny cat pictures).

My method has always been to crash my car and break a bunch of parts and then buy aftermarket parts to replace the stock broken ones. I really look at bang for the buck. Honestly almost every one of my mods were in place before I started autocross and I haven't really added any specifically for autocross except for wheels and tires.

You probably shouldn't do what I do. I drive my car year round, in the snow, on multiple road trips, and I race it. It now has 120K miles and still runs great. I love daily driving a car that I've customized exactly how I want.

I've been very careful to sacrifice as little as possible with regard to comfort and reliability, while adding as much performance as possible for the dollar. I do all my research on car forums and I do it a lot which has kept me from doing any regrettable mods...and I use the best fluids for the buck...and follow the factory maintenance schedule as a minimum.

It's been a lot of luck and a lot of good decisions (mixed with some stupid crashes). I'm hoping for (but not necessarily expecting) another 120K almost trouble free miles.:)

Oh, I'm really glad that I had such crappy cars growing up. Fixing them on my own and taking HS auto shop have given me the skills to save myself a ton in labor, though it's also important to know that you shouldn't bite off more than you can chew.

[dknv]

.. It now has 120K miles and still runs great. Excellent! I have heard from so many people that their subarus are over even the 200k make, and still going strong. Plus, the car is so versatile (especially wagons :)) - daily driver, autox'r, can run it at the track, can run it in rallyx or rally. Fun car!

[vic]

[QUOTE=dknv;6159]Excellent! I have heard from so many people that their subarus are over even the 200k make, and still going strong. Plus, the car is so versatile (especially wagons :)) - daily driver, autox'r, can run it at the track, can run it in rallyx or rally. Fun car![/QUO

UH OH! Sounds like someone is thinkin bout a SUBIE!:D

[vic]

Excellent! I have heard from so many people that their subarus are over even the 200k make, and still going strong. Plus, the car is so versatile (especially wagons :)) - daily driver, autox'r, can run it at the track, can run it in rallyx or rally. Fun car!

UH OH! Sounds like someone is thinkin bout a SUBIE!:D

[miataman]

Many times I feel that I should not have gone so far with my miata. Like Scott, the money/time factor has consumed me for about 4 years now. I proform every mod myself from a fully built engine, to custom alignments, to fender flares, ECU tunning, entire turbo set-ups, ect. Last night I was working on the 3rd oil cooler install till 1AM while having to wake up at 4 for work, just so I can be ready for RFR this Sat. Last week I struggled to finish a new alignment for autocross while managing 12hr work days.
I have been thinking about cars that are either track day only cars, ie. Radical SR3, or something that I can put a big radiator on and drive reliably on track and drive home, BMW M3. The problem is that I am in too deep into the miata. It is in its 3rd incarnation each one more radical than the last. If I had saved the money and enjoyed the miata I had 5 years ago I could have both miata, and track toy. The spending never stops, 35K plus in the car and it still needs more parts, and more importantly, more of my time. There a couple good things, I have been able to showcase my mechanical abilities, I have a car that is faster than an M3 on track, and I could have spent all that money on worse things. I think the #1 mistake I made so far is not sticking to goals I origonaly set. I wanted a competive CSP car, before I really even knew what CSP was. It should have ended there and If I wanted to be faster the solution sould have been; buy a already sorted faster car, not power adders and custom everything.

[noel]

To answer the question, it boils down to your goals. If you want to win, you find the class and car that can do the job with the least amount of work. Most people don't think that way when you first start. My SCCA class (Street Mod) choice happened because of the aftermarket chip I put on my Audi daily driver. For the DSP Subaru, it started with a rear sway bar and rear tower strut taking it out of stock. Being naive to the rules, internet bench racing can lead to buying parts that just move you in a direction you didn't intend.

If I did it all over again, I'd just drive the car in whatever street tire/novice/catch all class to learn. Then get into a co-drive with someone who has a prepped car and is willing to train a new driver. Or... talk to the fast guys who happen to drive the same type of car. Unfortunately for us DSP Subaru's there aren't many unless you're in the Reno Region. But basically, talk to the fast guys and see what they're doing and how they're doing it. This was the approach we started to take by talking to the best of the best to learn what can be done. We have top tuners helping in our builds and are constantly testing new set ups in search of the fabled perfect set up. Each car has it's particular key fast go-bits, methods of tuning, and driving style which are all based on the site you tune for.

As an example, if you're an ST Civic, you want front springs stiffer than rear, large rear bar, 0 toe front, and slight toe in for the rear. Then the driving style would be pitching it into the corners and power/counter-steer out. You definitely would have to use a speed maintenance style to not give any time up. If you're in a DSP Subaru, well.... never mind.

With regards to buying/building, I've done both. My brother and I built our original autox cars. I bought an E-Prepared Civic and learned the complexity of the term "limit of the rules". With that knowledge, we went on to build the DSP Subaru from the daily driver/occasional autox car into a dedicated racer with the help of the builder of the EP Civic. As for the Audi, I started racing with a top Audi tuner and sought they're advice, expertise, and on-course instruction.

But back to autox, our annual test regiment is all based on where National's will be. We seek out similar surfaces, course designs, and even altitude. That's why you've seen us test at Stead or Hawthorne with your region. At the time, it was all about Topeka which happened to be on asphalt and similar altitude (fuel map). We tried different spring combos, aero, suspension settings, sway bar rates, etc. We didn't worry about series points and weren't afraid to try something different. If you watch us race, you'll notice that we're always changing something on the car and giving each other feedback of what worked/ what didn't. Sometimes people are so worried about success in their own backyard to worry about getting better when the rest of the nation is getting faster. I understand that this is only a hobby but, for me, this hobby has extended to get everything out of the car and not leave anything out on course. Tuning should be about getting the car as perfect as you can where you only concentrate on driving and not on band-aiding a pushy or loose car. I don't call a car loose if I have to do throttle lift to get around a corner. To me, I just lost a tenth of a second by not being on the gas. The reality is that this car understeers on entry and the driver had to upset the balance to get by.

So in short, find fast drivers to learn from; look for similar cars and learn from their set up; make friends with people who demonstrated they know something about their cars (national champions/tuning companies/anyone willing to help); don't be afraid to try different set ups; learn from every event (take notes of conditions/set up) about your driving, car set up, course design biases; drive different cars to learn how to adapt and feel slight differences in set up; take rides with faster drivers; say yes when a faster driver offers to let you co-drive.

[MPREZIV]

I've really enjoyed reading this thread! I don't think I've got much to add tho. Most of the posts before mine are suggestive of what I'd say. I've got some time to waste tho... :D

Of course I have not had the displeasure of having been fleeced by a mechanic / tuner somewhere, as my hands are the only ones that have been involved in building and setting up my car. I can surely agree with the idea that the journey has been interesting so far though, what with multiple different configurations of the car. Modifying, and then re-modifying the same components, to get a specific result. Not to mention that I've often had a habit of not planning my modifications. I just break stuff, and then upgrade what broke...

On the topic of buy vs. build, I couldn't be more proud of what I've made my car into. I only ended up being competitive in Solo by accident mind you, since I started out with the car I wanted, and found myself seriously out-gunned in SM due to a few small mods that weren't necessarily helpful. But it was no big deal to me, because I was having SO much fun, winning wasn't my primary focus by a long shot! Being in SM, I decided that upon the opportunity to do more modifications to the car, I'd just go big whenever I had the chance, and try to eventually build a competitive (in Reno Region at least) SM car. At the same time, being "out-gunned" also put me on a STEEP learning curve, being a newbie, in a slow car, against some DAMN good drivers will help you step up your game in a hurry! Then the 2009 rule book came out, and SP rules had changed to allow my car, in it's current mechanical form, to run in DSP! (save for an item or two... thanks again Van!) Suddenly I find myself in an awesome year-long battle for a class championship, repeated top of the heap PAX finishes, and being asked all over by new drivers for driving and set-up help! I never thought I'd end up being so competitive! My car's still not a national level competitive car, and I'm still not a national level competitive driver, but the luck of the draw, I suppose, has put me in a position to do some winning, and continue having a great time! Maybe one day I'll be able to invest the time/effort/money to step up to the next level of Solo competition, and get humbled in the face all over again!

Long story short, I've never stopped having fun, and I'd do the whole thing over again in a hot minute.

[Cody]

^Great writeup, Noel. I know most of us local Subaru guys were super impressed by your car and performance at Hawthorne last year. I really hope to see you out again soon.

Out of curiosity, how have you guys done at nationals with the RS?

[noel]

For us, we were always mid/upper pack nationally due to cone problems or broken parts. Regionally, we usually finish up top. It wasn't until last year that we were fast nationally. Personally I think it's because of the site and course design. They went away from point and shoot courses where our measely 149 hp can't compete with 240+ Beamers. I finish just outside of trophies by a tenth or two due to conage. Gilbert finished 3rd and Deanne was the DSPL National Champion.

To tell you the truth, I'm very impressed with Reno Regions DSP and believe that tire changes would yield nationally competitive cars. If everyone went to 275/35/15's or 285/30/18's, we'd see some fast runs.

[Kevin M]

I jumped out of DSP this year Noel. I sold the white coupe and put everything into my '93 wagon, plus an engine build for FP. Gonna see what happens when you get power/weight around 8:1 with no turbo. :)

[MPREZIV]

...To tell you the truth, I'm very impressed with Reno Regions DSP and believe that tire changes would yield nationally competitive cars. If everyone went to 275/35/15's or 285/30/18's, we'd see some fast runs.

That's the plan... as soon as my wallet gets on board with the idea! :devil:

[dknv]

Out of curiosity, how have you guys done at nationals with the RS?If memory serves, Gilbert was in 1st on day 1 of nationals last year. That car IS competitive (and, Deanne, in her, what - 3rd year?, won her class).

[Cody]

I jumped out of DSP this year Noel. I sold the white coupe and put everything into my '93 wagon, plus an engine build for FP. Gonna see what happens when you get power/weight around 8:1 with no turbo. :)
I can't wait to see this! :) What does FP stand for? Does anyone else run in FP?

[Kevin M]

F Prepared, and not that I'm aware of.