The future of PDX and Time Trials?

[sperry]

I'm starting this thread because I kinda feel like our trials/pdx program is missing the boat a little in terms of capitalizing on the current "Time Attack" craze.

This season we're only looking at 5 days of trials/pdx over 4 weekends this year. I understand that it's tough to get people out to the track in numbers to make the events profitable, but I think if people are coming out for a Saturday, we can probably get them for a Sunday as well. We'll see how this season works out of course, but for me, it's just as much work to get out for a one day event as it is for a two day event, and I'd much rather get twice as much track time.

Next, our trials program is missing something... there's no glitz, no glamor, no hype. While I'm not really one to buy into the "lifestyle" crap that goes along with other time attack programs, those guys certainly have a much bigger following than we do, so they're obviously doing something right. For example, check out the RedLine Time Attack series: http://www.redlinetimeattack.com/. Frankly, we're missing the boat... time trials is getting to be a popular sport. We need to take our grassroots program, and polish it up a bit. Invite some big-name teams out to the event, get some media coverage, generate spectator interest. Put the NORPAC championship on the map as an annual stop on their calendar. This should also generate some more interest from the guys running NASA trials and get them out to our events as well hopefully.

And finally, we need to rev-up our PDX program. PDX shouldn't be the side-show of the trials weekend, it should be the bread-and-butter. Trials is expensive... we shouldn't expect to see a ton of cars out there. What we should strive for is a program where we've got 50 PDX entrants out there with instructors having a fun and safe time, interspersed with some high-power, eye-candy, trials cars that are as much entertainment for the PDXers to watch as they are a competitive series. Many other HPDE clubs have no issues getting people out to their events, have no problems running a 10 weekends a year, have no issues paying for courseworkers and expensive track rentals. We should be able to emulate them better than we are. Having an expert/instructor run group with open passing would probably go a long way to attracting the drivers from those series out to our events as well (assuming we can do anything like that within the SCCA rules framework).

And of course, we can always improve the streamlining of the event, get more time for everyone by getting them on and off the track faster, streamline tech inspection (Friday night pre-tech?), paid courseworkers, etc. (Something other HPDE clubs do very well that we're not quite there with... for example at an HPDE at Laguna Seca, there is literally not a second of track time wasted.)

In my opinion, I'd like to see a Saturday PDX day, that includes 3 or 4 PDX groups, plus an instructor/open practice group for the time trials cars.

Then on Sunday, run 3 PDX groups, plus a TT and CT event, with the normal practice/qualify/race/race format.

That way, Saturday is basically the PDX day where the focus is on getting PDXers instruction, classroom time, and a ton of fun track time, while the TTers are acting as instructors and using their instruction time also as practice time. Then Sunday, the PDXers can hit the track w/ less instruction as the Trials take center stage and run their event.

I'd also suggest raising the prices a bit. I think people would be willing to pay more if they're getting more instruction, more track time, and a bit of a show. That is assuming we can streamline the event, and get some higher level trials cars out to the track.

Even longer term goals should be to run our season with more events, at more tracks, in conjunction with other clubs. There's no reason why we shouldn't be able to team up with TEAM, or Unlimited Laps, or Trackmasters, and those sorts of clubs. Let them bring their squad of PDX drivers out for fun, and we can share the track to host a round of the NORPAC season with SFR at Thunderhill or something.

Just my pre-season 2 cents. We're focusing so much on using trials as a stepping stone for Club Racing that I'd hate to lose sight that PDX and Trials are terrific programs with lots of room to grow in their own right that can benefit Reno SCCA's members tremendously.

What do the rest of you folks think? What's right and what's wrong with our PDX/Trials program? What would bring you out to the track more often? What would you be willing to pay more for? What's important to you about hitting the track, instructors? More run groups? More track time? More competition? Let us know!

[Dean]

As the chief instructor, my focus is on PDX, the instructors/coaches and the drivers/students and I am very concerned.

While we have a good instructor pool, it is far to small, and the current format of these events makes it difficult for them to focus the level of attention the students require/deserve for a safe and educational event.

It is a real conflict to expect a TT competitor who needs to prep a car, practice, qualify and compete to spend an additional 3-4.5 hours in student cars depending on the number of PDX groups. So what happens? We have barely enough instructors to cover the novice group and end up stealing event organizers, and other chiefs to cover. Since the 2nd group goes out next, we send people out without instructors or make them wait on the grid for one to get back. If we have a 3rd group, then the same thing happens one more time. Before or after all that, the instructors have to go drive/prep/check times, eat, go to the bathroom, etc... Not a job I'd volunteer for, even for free TT entry.

The real losers however are the students. Due to limited resources, the Novices get the bulk of the attention, and the rest often get much less. This I fear will lead us into trouble. It is the intermediate drivers who are beginning to really learn the track and starting to add speed that often need the most guidance and coaching and they are the ones who often get the least.

In my ideal scenario, we attract and retain more than enough qualified instructors to put one in every student car in every session all day long. (1-2 students per instructor) We make sure those instructors are qualified, but not make licensing requirements a burden. And we give them track time as some compensation, but more importantly to be able to give rides and show by example to the students the skills we are trying to instill in the students.

I'm not a big fan of open passing, but that is not a key issue.

I am strongly opposed to TT/CT drivers running in PDX groups. First, I think it is unfair to their competitors to get the extra practice on the day of competition. That said, I am much more worried about mixing drivers who are going 10-11/10ths in a "practice" frame of mind mixed in with potentially intermediate PDX drivers who are just trying to stay on the track and on line potentially without instruction/coaching. This is a recipe for disaster. You can talk all you want about it at driver's meetings, on the grid, etc., but you can't put the genie back in the bottle after an incident. Asking a competitive driver to change driving styles and speeds between run groups is just not reasonable, and asking a PDX driver to ignore the TT car 6 inches from their rear bumper is equally untenable. There is also the issue of the different levels of safety equipment and preparation of the cars, but those are again secondary IMHO.

HOD, TEAM, ACNA, etc. none of which are local can put on exclusive PDX type events at RFR and break even / make a profit. I think we could just as easily based on last year's PDX entries if not easier. I would be for splitting TT/CT and PDX days over a weekend. This might also greatly increase our volunteerism as the drivers not driving on that day might be more likely to help out.

[zpeed]

This is what I learn from one PDX that I attended last year. We need more good qualified instructors. I got a good instructor (thank to Dean) and learn a lot. My brother did not as lucky as I am. Good instructors are hard to find. Good driver does not mean that he is a good instructor.

I went to school at RFR and I only have 2 good instructors the other 3 was ok. The other 3, I have no doubt that they are good drivers but they can't teach. When instructors said good, good, good that is not enough for beginner. We or I need a lot more input like what line to take, where to look, when to shift or brake etc.

Other than instructors issue, I think track time is good for the beginner. Of course 1st time out I have no clue. Then the end of the day I did learn a lot.

The price is also right. I like idea of incentive program to get some discount too.

I love to race all 5 events this year. But money and family are big factors for me. I used to run full season auto-x 10 years ago (single) with race tires. Now I can hardly make it to 4 races in a year on my stock car.

As a new CT driver this year, I sign up for both PDX and CT for that exact reason more seat time. I'm not expect to win or get any fastest time of the day. But I can see that if I start winning (hopefully) it might be an unfair advantage.

[sperry]

Nat, I think the big issue with running TT/CT and PDX at the same time isn't with getting an unfair advantage over your competition, it's that it's a detriment to the PDXers experience. If I'm a relative n00b at PDX, I'm going to have a very hard time getting better if I've got no instructor in my car because he's in the car behind me, 6 inches off my bumper trying to practice for his TT event in my PDX session instead of instructing.

Plus, having TT cars in the PDX session isn't going to be much fun for the TT drivers either... I have hard enough time getting open track during the TT practice sessions, I can't imagine how impossible it will be to get clear track if I'm out there dodging street cars with less passing zones and less experienced drivers in a PDX group. It's a lose/lose situation for both groups.

[AlexR]

One reason the Time Attack stuff is so popular is they don't require a roll cage.

1.24 If a roll cage is built and installed within a vehicle, the following rules must be followed. ...

Time Attack results are also listed in Magazines that are popular amoung the bolt on Crowd. I know a number of "bolt on bench racers" in tahoe who have never done a sactioned motor sport, but could rattle off Time attack records at several tracks.

They have created a culture that is Very very easy for anyone to feel a part of. (anyone with a bolt on part, and $5 for a magazine) can follow "the life" . Anyone with a car and $200 can Race the same track as the 'big cars' and get timed. Where as we are only going to get people with X amount of disposable income and people who have weekends free. and if you aren't fully prepared you can't run the full track for time.

I think running Club trials is a great starter to get more people out. not limiting the Club Trials to 1/2 the straight away Might also help. (this difference makes me considering just doing time attacks with redline instead of SCCA Club trials)

Their classing structure is also much more friendly to someone who bolted on 1-3 parts that don't help their car very much, Where as in SCCA often a mod that doesn't help bumps you out of class (Blow Off Valve for example)

I'm not 100% certain, but i believe they have full open passing as well (it looks that way from youtube videos i've seen)

Should we completely copy them and hope for higher turn outs and Pray we get no accidents. I'de say No. Should we look at if we can relax certain areas that may have acceptable attendance to safety trade offs? I say we should consider it.

[Kevin M]

Alex, we don't require a roll cage either for Club Trials. In fact, almost everything you described works exactly like Club Trials, except certain types of cars get bumped to Time Trials. Anyone with a car and $175 can go to RFR, lap for times, and beat other people doing the same thing. Personally, I'm against sanctioning any form of timing for cars without roll cages, but I'm in a minority. We did it last year and we will continue to do it for the foreseeable future.

[sperry]

The big difference between TT and CT is the roll cage. There are no mod limitations either in the Time Trials Production classes... that BOV is legal, all the way up to motor-swaps. But in order to keep CT safe w/o the same safety requirements we have to limit the speeds, hence the shortened straight for CT. At the '06 NORPAC Championship my CT car was the fastest car of the weekend... period. We simply can't have the CT cars going 130 mph into the esses under competition conditions, w/o full safety gear.

As far as RedLine's rules... I think they're nuts to allow the level of preparation they allow without doing something as far as requiring safety gear. Many of those time attack cars are not safe enough. RedLine just hasn't had anyone hurt or killed yet, so they keep letting it slide. Once they have an incident, their insurance isn't going to allow people to keep running the cars they're running. I'm all for tapping into the "scene" the way RedLine has, but I'm certainly not for sidestepping common sense for safety requirements. Our events need to be run under full compliance with SCCA safety rules.

[Kevin M]

I concur with Scott completely. It just doesn't make sense to build a fast car for competition use without adding significant safety equipment. PDX is different.

[Jimmy Geck]

I have to agree that a big problem is lack of instructors. I prefer to run alone but really needed the ones I had my first time out. I We need more qualified instructors to just instruct instead of race/prep/instruct all at the same time. All that said I'll volenteer to run alone so someone who needs it more can get an instructor.

I dont think 2 day events are the best idea. The poor bastards like me cant afford to run 2 days anyway. It is at least an extra $75 in gas not counting extra entry fees. I barely afford the 1 day as it is. Money aside I say run every weekend! I would if I could.

[Jimmy Geck]

1 question? What kind of experiance is required for CT? If I can find some tires before the end of the year I plan on running club trials for the competition and my slow car doesnt like the full length straight.

[vic]

I think we need to do more ride alongs with instructors in thier cars driving at 8/10ths to teach the line, braking, and acceleration. I ounce went to an event where it was required that you ride with an instuctor prior to going on track if you had not been
with that group or approved before by your experience. It was very helpful for settelling the butterflies and learning the line. Rather than a lead follow this would be much more benaficial. As far as open passing, I think it should be limited to TT preped cars only with a point by. Otherwise it is racing!

NO CONTACT!

[Dave Deborde]

OK folks, we switched from CT/TT to PDX and TT and went away from two day events most weekends two years ago because the drivers told us they couldn't afford (either money or time away from family) to spend a whole weekend at the track. We need to have approximately 40 people both days to cover expenses and sustain the program. If you use hired help to staff all positions that number goes up significantly. Attendance is growing steadily but I don't think we have enough to separate PDX and CT/TT and run them on different days. I have talked with several other clubs that do track days at RFR and they seem to have the same problem. They have a problem covering their costs. Remember, we are drawing from a much smaller population base here in Northern Nevada than the guys at most other tracks around the country. That is why we try and have our events as with multiple event types so we can appeal to as large a percentage of the population as possible.

If we can get an instructor training program up and running with several PDX groups (probably three) and an instructor group the PDX might become self sustaining. When the instructor group is ready, that may be the time to take the leap to stand alone PDX. As far as which type event draws more entries, when we offer PDX/CT/TT the split between PDX and the competition group is pretty equal. Early registrations for the April 26 event are weighing a little more toward competition. I think I counted 5 pure PDX and 7 pure CT/TT entries plus there are two that entered both PDX and CT. Based on Dean's and others concern for running allowing CT and TT drivers to co-enter in PDX, I will contact them and ask them to change their registrations to either CT or PDX. I may be incorrect (and usually am) but I think they will both opt to run CT or drop out of the event all together.

As far as eliminating car prep requirements, we are pretty consistent with the majority of clubs in PDX and Club Trials. I agree completely with Scott that we shouldn't remove safety equipment from all out competition Track Trials cars. We have to adhear to SCCA rules anyway and as Scott explained it, it just makes sense to prepare these cars to a higher safety standard. I would not wish to be a race official at an event that does not make adequate safety considerations. There is always a risk associated with high speed track events but we need to do everything we can to minimize the risk.

Dave Deborde

[Dean]

I think you have to attract instructors prior to training them. Right now, that is our biggest challenge. Other than myself and other event staff, to the best of my knowledge, we have had a total of 1 non TT driver instructor at 1 event and that was by accident. He was one of the Pro-Control instructors and thought they were doing the instruction at the event but he stuck around anyway.

Again, our TT instructors are doing a fine job, but as I said before, the many directions we pull them in is not in their or the students best interest. It is not my intent to deny them the opportunity to instruct, but to ensure we have enough qualified instructors to lighten their burden at the same time as providing the level of instruction all of the students deserve. To do this, we have to have a program that permits and attracts non TT driver instructors. The most common way to do this is to provide them with time to drive themselves while also giving rides to students.

There used to be 3 PDX groups and 2 TT groups. Now we have added CT and dropped to two PDX groups. There is just no time available, so we are at some sort of impass between programs. At this juncture, I do not have a good solution that meets the needs of all groups.

My only thought is that we cut back to only 2 of the three levels, PDX, CT or TT, but that has it's own problems for a region that is trying to grow their program, so it is a bad idea.

[BillH]

Are you doing any advertising? Just asking. Dave's right about the small population base and getting people from Norcal up here is tough with all the other events available. Did anyone contact Reno Corvettes of groups like Sabaru Club of the Sierras, they had a big event at RFR a couple of years ago.
I posted the event last month on CorvetteForum, Corvette-Guru and The RoadRacingForum.

Getting good instructors is going to continue to be a problem. Again, small population base, anyone from Norcal would have to foot the bill for gas and hotel. T-Hill started out by giving instructors a free test day then cut it back to a $60 voucher and lost some instructors. We can't do that at the current income level. I think the suggestion on giving instructors track time is a good idea. Hopefully the TT drivers understand how difficult this kind of event is to run and will continue to instruct.

Opinion: Open passing in PDX is insane. PDX and CT on the track at the same time hurts more than helps. Sooner or later events like Redline will get sued for their safety rules (or lack of).

[Kevin M]

Just FYI Bill, most of the track hounds from Subaru Enthusiasts Car Club of the Sierras are already very active members of the Reno SCCA- Solo Director Matt Roy, Director Scott Perry, Timing and Scoring Chief Mike Khamis, Swiss Army Chief Dean Benz, Secretary Debbie Kerswill, Registrar Kevin McDaniel and Chief of Waivers Nick Hansen are all SECCS folks. Numerous other active autocrossers pop in from time to time with us, and as always anybody else who enjoys their cars or their driving is welcome to stop by our meets or join our message forum.

[sperry]

Just to reiterate my position on what I'd like to see in the future (not this season of course, I know why we are where we are this season with one day events, etc).

First, we need more participants. And I think we can get them in the PDX side of things if we have a reason for them to come out, which is where the entertainment and instructor side of things needs to grow. As was mentioned, time attack is a growing sport, and Reno is a motorsports town. There are all sorts of import tuner types in this city and they sure aren't showing up at autocross or time trials. Tapping into a crowd of enthusiasts that spend $1000's on their cars every year for parts is a no-brainer. We need to entice them to come out... perhaps just to see some crazy time trials cars (invited shop cars perhaps), but hook 'em with a great set of instructors that can take them out on track in their own cars and teach them to drive. Surely by tapping into that scene we'll get several people hooked that will get into it and become "regulars".

As far as the open passing... I've got no problem with limiting PDX to point-bys and passing zones, and CT should probably be the same, but with more zones.

But virtually all of the TT drivers are well experienced and drive at other HPDE events with true open-passing. I think if we allowed open passing in TT, we'd have very few problems. At the very least we should be able to allow open passing with a point-by, just so no one's surprised, but passing in the corners is necessary at RFR where a faster car can be prevented from getting a single hot lap during a 20 minute session if there are only a few slower cars out there due to the long gaps between passing zones.

[newbie911]

This coming from a "new person" wanting to get involved. I think there needs to be more information available to new people to get them involved in this. Also more "advertising" would help out to drum up business for this. As I see it, I want to come out and participate, but how? What does PDX, CT, and TT mean exactly? What do you need to start? What instruction will you get? Do you need a "cage"? Is there passing? Will I have and instructor in the car at all times? Will I even see track time? Etc. etc. .... Maybe I'm missing this info. somewhere (website?), but if I am, then others probably are too. I have 3-4 friends interested in this too but are asking the same questions. We like the idea of this (if it's what we think it will be) vs. paying $400+/- to go out to RFR and go thru one of their "lisensing" programs. Keep the cost to a minimum for beginners and get the word out there. Provide all the neccisary info. too! Sorry to sound negative, just trying to be helpful from a newbie! And yes, I'm planning to come out the 26th for the PDX I believe .... maybe with some friends.

[Mustang Fan]

I have done the one day weekend where I instructed and raced in TT. I only did it once because it burned me out. I was literally getting out of my car and getting into my students car, then getting out of his car for 20 minutes and getting back on the track in my car. It was very tough. I like the idea of the 2days: Sat for the PDXer's and Sun for the CT/TT. I would be more than happy to instruct in this format. I also understand the money and time situation some of us are in (including me) and how and extra day at the track can get real expensive, but its worth it to me.
Our CT is very similar to Time Attack expect there is no open passing, which is good. NASA runs their HPDE like so: level 1 instructor on board. level 2 no instructor limited passing, level 3 no instructor liberal passing, level 4 (Time trials, you get your race lic.) open passing. NASA also allows ride alongs which is a big draw to get your friends involved. Bringing CT back into the mix is a great idea and will draw more people (humble opinoin).
I have asked why we don't have TT/CT/PDX at other tracks with other regions and the answer I keep getting is the other tracks are a) booked up b) they are more concerned about open wheel racing then what we are trying to do. It doesn't make sense to me, however, the other guys run their HPDE and racing events on the same weekend.
I really would like us to due a co-event at Thunderhill, twice a year. Once we got the guys in the SanFran region hooked, guess where they would be coming? Yup, RFR to compete with us. I personally believe this is instrumental in growing our program, peroid. Cost might be a factor for us to travel there (plan on about $600 to $800, from my experience) but well worth the effort once your there.
Iam open to anything, my concern is we make this work. I don't like going to Ca. and running with other groups, the SCCA is safe, whereas some other groups not so much.
my .02 cents.
Jeff

[Mustang Fan]

As far as advertising, we should be doing something with Summit Racing. And yes I know they are more about drag racing, however, why not have our tech inspections in their parking lot? Line all of the cars up, hoods open, big banner on the street and let the general public come by and look. Have all of the info for both the Solo and Race programs available. And do it again around July. I forget who it was, but somebody had business cards with all of our info on it we could pass out to people we run into who might be interested, great idea whatever happend to it? Give me a poster to put up at my work with the schedules on it and consider it done.

[Mel Torme]

I'm relatively new to track trials, with significant exsposure to the NASA TT program (as a spectator) since the beginning of 2007. I have mostly stayed with PDX at diffrerent levels with different organizations learning how to drive with my own private coach. I started instructing novices with several groups for the express purpose of gaining FREE track time as well as the enjoyment of watching a novice gain skill and confidence.

Reno SCCA's PDX/CT/TT program is in it's infancy, and it will grow, albeit slowly, as more people get exposed. I liken it to what has happened to the SOLO program, as the word passes among the enthusiasts more and more locals AND visitors show up to participate in well run events as each year passes. RFR is also in it's infancy, and future improvements will help attract more folks as the word spreads. The current reality is that private programs like HOD, Trackmasters, and TEAM Racing who have large databases of past participants still struggle to attract enough participants to RFR. This is evidenced by the recent pull out by Trackmasters from their 4/19 event. TEAM Racing barely broke even at RFR last year and is struggling to get enough people to make their 5/24-5/25 event go black. Using instructors from CT and TT is difficult and cumbersome but IMHO it's the most effective way to bring a program along. Good instructors bring more participants.

Softening the safety requirements is a slippery slope. I drove my showroom stock Corvette in the TT program with Reno SCCA in 2006 and had a ball. Then I witnessed an identical car hit the wall at Thunderhill and another one flip at Buttonwillow, something I didn't believe possible. These incidents occured at a PDX! I promptly weighed the risk of not having adequate safety equipment and bought a dedicated race prepped car with a full cage. RFR is a fun track, but even showroom stock cars frequently exceed 100MPH on the main straight and into the esses.

I think Jim, Dave and the race group are doing a great job of nuturing the program. It's a huge challenge and a slow process.

[dknv]

I think Jim, Dave and the race group are doing a great job of nuturing the program. It's a huge challenge and a slow process.And the cost is constantly under scrutiny. Now if we could get more help in the way of sponsorship/subsidies and getting the word out even more (posters/flyers/copy of Road & Tach at places like Summit), that wouldn't hurt.

[S2kreno]

I think promoting PDX on its own merits and treating it as a money-making operation solves lots of problems. First, if the PDX schools were stand alone events run on Saturday and if we just had racing on Sunday you eliminate the issues of instructors having to deal with racing / instructing the same day and PDXers dodging those same instructors on the track. Those who instruct Sat could get to play for free Sunday. PDXers who want to could do school Sat and race Sunday if inclined. I've experienced both the driving school at RFR and several PDXs and I have to say the SCCA instruction was more comprehensive, there was a lot more driving time, and it was cheaper too -- in fact in all ways the SCCA experience was superior. And if Pro-Control can charge what they do we should be able to find a way to make enough in the school to subsidize the racing -- the trick will be I think to manage it without alienating the track folks or pissing off the school there.

[sperry]

I think promoting PDX on its own merits and treating it as a money-making operation solves lots of problems. First, if the PDX schools were stand alone events run on Saturday and if we just had racing on Sunday you eliminate the issues of instructors having to deal with racing / instructing the same day and PDXers dodging those same instructors on the track. Those who instruct Sat could get to play for free Sunday. PDXers who want to could do school Sat and race Sunday if inclined. I've experienced both the driving school at RFR and several PDXs and I have to say the SCCA instruction was more comprehensive, there was a lot more driving time, and it was cheaper too -- in fact in all ways the SCCA experience was superior. And if Pro-Control can charge what they do we should be able to find a way to make enough in the school to subsidize the racing -- the trick will be I think to manage it without alienating the track folks or pissing off the school there.
I wouldn't want to split the weekend into PDX only Sat, Trials only Sun. I think a better setup is to focus on PDX on Sat, but provide an instructors session during the day where instructors get to play, give ride-alongs, or practice with their trials cars. So, the trials guys are out there, they just don't get the focus on Sat.

Then on Sunday, there's still PDX, but it's more just open-lapping, and not quite so instructional oriented. Give the people that learned on Sat some time to practice. Meanwhile we run the CT and TT event on Sunday.

I would hope we'd be able to get Trials drivers out on Saturday to help instruct in exchange for giving them some practice time. And I'd hope to get maybe half of the PDX crowd to come back out on Sunday for some on-track fun and hopefully to watch the trials events.

[TracDaz]

I'm so happy our club puts on great events for Solo and PDX and Trials, and now club racing. When I first joined in 2005, we had Solo and the Bensons were struggling to get a Trials program started. Three years later much has changed. All of those putting these events together are doing a great job.

I'm excited about being able to run in Club Trials this year. Last year, I was regularly held up into, through and out of the many corners at RFR by Corvettes, BMWs and other 'fast' cars. I was in a stock Miata. There was no passing except where these cars pulled my 'slow' car and I was never able to pass. Limited passing is a problem for slower (but nimbler) cars, too. It's safe, though, and that's what's most important.

I understand the need for instructors. I was so very fortunate to have great instructors at my PDXs (thanks Dean!).

If TT drivers take students for drives in their race cars, where will the students sit? Just a thought... What are the qualifications for being a PDX instructor? How many hours/miles/events does someone need to show to be considered?

Attending 2-day events is off my budget. Buying a race car is off my budget. Being able to buy Gina's S2000 hardtop was a big stretch. Competing with a great group of folks on a real track is incredible - even for 5 days a year. Thanks for all you do!

[Dean]

As with most types of instruction, it is as much if not more about communication skills than the skill being taught.

You don't have to be fast, but since you will be giving rides at some point, you need to be able to drive good smooth consistent on line laps and talk while you do it.

You have to be comfortable sitting in the right seat and calmly coaching someone who has never driven on a track. this primarily consist of acting as their brain and talking about what they will be doing next before they need to do it interspersed with brief supportive comments. Critique is reserved for more advanced students. :)

A far as race cars with no passenger seats, well, that may be something they or we have to address. Most other clubs require instructors to have cars with 2 seats and like restraints.

[vic]

I purchased a right seat and acquired a 6 point harness just so I could take along PDX drivers for instructional purposes in my race car. I think this is a lot more benificial for the student to learn the line, accelaration, and braking. I will probably be to busy with tech to do to much instructing but I am hoping to help as much as I can. Russ I hope you are the first:).

My next purchase will be an intercom system so student and driver can communicate while on course.

I personaly would like to see the Reno SCCA succeed in their endeavor to create a successful TT and Road Race progam.

If we decide to have open passing it needs to be in TT only with point by, otherwise it is road racing. I do not believe the rules allow that anyway.

What ever direction we go, I hope to continue to be a part of it.

[BillH]

Vic, The intercoms make a world of difference. I've used them a lot. I know someone that had 5 or 6 sets and am going to see if they are interested in selling any.
I'll be doing tech with you on Sat.
Bill

[BillH]

Just FYI Bill, most of the track hounds from Subaru Enthusiasts Car Club of the Sierras are already very active members of the Reno SCCA- Solo Director Matt Roy, Director Scott Perry, Timing and Scoring Chief Mike Khamis, Swiss Army Chief Dean Benz, Secretary Debbie Kerswill, Registrar Kevin McDaniel and Chief of Waivers Nick Hansen are all SECCS folks. Numerous other active autocrossers pop in from time to time with us, and as always anybody else who enjoys their cars or their driving is welcome to stop by our meets or join our message forum.

Thanks Kevin, Didn't know that, I instructed at their RFR event a couple of years ago, great group of people.

[Dean]

The headsets are almost a necessity for good communication and coaching unless both are in Open face helmets, but even that is iffy.

The Nady ones are OK but are cheap and the cabling to the headsets fails regularly. The Chatterbox ones are much better IMHO but are more expensive.

I haven't tried it yet, but have some GMRS radios with VOX and headsets I have threatened to try using when doing lead / follow, but I am not really a big fan of lead / follow as it has the follower looking at you, not around and through the corners as they should be.

[Mustang Fan]

I own a pair of intercom headsets and don't see how anyone can instruct without them. Yelling at your student is no fun for either party. My Dad and I considered buying several sets for our region, but things happened and the moeny wasn't there when it was time to buy. Ride alongs are a great way to help the student "see the line, braking zones, etc" and if it is done before they even get on the track it will help ease the "butterflies" they feel about getting on a track they have never been on. I agree with Dean on the follow the leader concept, unless your student has a , what I'll call a "natural driving ability" where they can visualize the track thru the cars ahead of them.
Reading thru this post time and again, its plain to see everyone here wants our program to be successful, and that is most important.

[NV Racer]

Talking about instructors taking students on ride alongs. You may get a kick out of this video. The video shows a ride along in a Spec Miata, Very funny. Here is some background. The Driver is Laura Thomas from the SF region. They are at a charity event at Laguna Seca where people pay for a ride on track. The microphone the passenger is carrying connects to the track PA system and is broadcast all over the track for everyone to hear.
http://www.specmiatavideos.com/other%20videos/barb.wmv

Dennis

[vic]

Great video Dennis. I have mixed it up with Laura before, she is a great driver.

[Dave Deborde]

The above is all good discussion but it kind of boils down to some key issues, I think. Our program is growing steadily, particularly in the Track Trials competition group. When we started running at Reno-Fernley Raceway there were only about three cars in Reno and the surrounding areas that were eligible to run in Track Trials and only a couple licensed drivers. Back then we combined Club Trials and Track Trials cars in the same run group just to make up a reasonable field. That was frowned upon by some and we stopped doing that. Instead we eliminated CT and switched to PDX and Track Trials. Several former CT drivers upgraded their cars to Track Trials and obtained a TT Comp license. The other CT drivers either stopped running or switched to PDX. We did retain the CT at the annual Norpac Division Championship events in the Fall. Interestingly, we now have a significant number of Track Trials eligible cars and a growing number of TT licensed drivers and in fact a surprising number of drivers with race competition licenses. A number of people that ran in the Divisional in CT asked if we couldn't have a CT series in the region again like we did originally so we tried using two track configurations with CT using a configuration that utilizes a shorter front straight. (remember these cars are not required to have any added safety equipment beyound that required in PDX or in Solo Street Prepared) A number of people have opted to switch from PDX to CT because they want to compete but don't want to make their street car into an all out prepared Track Trials car. At this point the CT and TT groups are paying 1/2 or more of the cost of hosting an event. As of this evening, after I removed the two CT/PDX cross-dressers we have 17 entries. 4 are PDX, 7 are CT and 6 are TT.

I agree that the best situation would be to have a stand alone one day PDX with maybe four groups; three for participants and one for instructors. And, I think we need a driver instructor program in the region to teach our instructors how to instruct and to get them to become licensed instructors. I hope that Dean can hold some instructor training sessions and increase the pool of qualified instructors. That will take time but would be good for the long term health of the PDX program. I expect that we will continue to have a difficult time drawing large numbers of participants to PDX but if we can get close to 40 the PDX can exist on it's own. I don't think we should eliminate CT and attempt to force the CT drivers back to PDX, we need to figure out how to search out the drivers that want to try out a track event and then wow them with great instruction and a fun time. We also need to recognize that some of those new PDX drivers will decide to move into competition in either CT or TT but some will prefer to stay in the PDX program indefinately. The point is that we need to attract both competition and non-competition drivers if we want to continue to grow the program. It appears to me that the competition side of the program is doing OK and will continue to grow if the PDX program is strong and gets drivers interested in track driving. It seems to me that we need to figure out how we can get the attendance numbers up significantly in PDX without taking away from CT/TT. If we can develop the "best" instructors and then advertise that throughout Northern Nevada maybe the numbers can grow.

This thread started with Scotts discussion about Track Attack events. I looked at their rules and they are similar to our CT for Street and Modified Classes and their Unlimited classes are close to our TT rules except I don't think they require any license. The comments about 'passing' are interesting but at this time our rules require that we only allow passing in passing zones and only with a point by. The Chief Steward and the Safety Steward have to agree on the passing zones and agree they are safe. The rules do not require that passing must be on drivers left but must be on only one side and must be with a point bye. I think we need to be very careful about creating a passing zone in a turn. If any of you have been in wheel to wheel competition and have had another driver dive inside on a turn and take your line away you wheel you will understand what I am talking about. I really don't think we can expose our drivers to that potential for contact and damage. One club that allows passing in turns only allows the pass on the outside, never on the inside. There is the possibility of creating more passing zones for TT but I don't think we can go to completely open passing.

The idea of having the student ride as a passenger in the insructors car has been discussed in the TTAC a number of times. It is OK to do it provided the passenger seat and restraints match those of the driver. As an alternative, several SCCA Regions are having the instructors ride with the student but are required to use a helmet intercom to communicate more effectively. Also, lead - follow is not encouraged but allowed so that is yet another alternative.

Sorry for the long winded message, just wanted to get some of this out there!

Dave

[BillH]

Intercoms: Good to know that the Nody cablse aren't the best.
The Nody PMC-2 is $75 + shipping
Chatterbox CB50 lists for $74 + $60 for 2 headsets +ship
The online bikeshops have the CB50 w/ 2 headsets for $116/free shipping

[zpeed]

When me and my son practice gokart we use bluetooth head set with our cell phone. I know I'm cheap.

[zpeed]

I don't see myself convert my dd to full TT car. I just want to drive for fun, that why I do the PDX. This year after talking to Jim, I decide to try a little more speed with CT. I don't care much about timing yet. That why I do PDX/CT just a little more money but I can have more fun time on the track too. I hope CT stay for the racer wanna be but don't have a budget to prep the car to TT spec.

I still race gokart in novice class and I start racing when NNCK build the track.. I just enjoy the race but do not time and money (and skill) to be up front row.

[vic]

Vic, The intercoms make a world of difference. I've used them a lot. I know someone that had 5 or 6 sets and am going to see if they are interested in selling any.
I'll be doing tech with you on Sat.
Bill


Thanks Bill,
I accually won't be there I am in Colorado working for the next few weeks.

[Gary]

I think we absolutely need all three groups. Running PDX is great fun, but not when you are lucky enough to have a great sports car and have to sometimes wait a whole lap to step on the gas pedal again. Running RFR on a test and tune day is much preferable to PDX only. Likewise not fair to those slower drivers to be worried about the car behind them and not concentrating on what they should be concentrating on.
Some cars just can't have roll bars installed easily (Aluminum frame) or without destroying the value and insurability of the car to allow movement into TT.

I am always amazed more people don't do this. I would think that a little advertising would go a long way to attract people to these events.

Passing thought: drivers doing the passing usually have the skills to pass and know when and where to do so, the drivers being passed occassionally don't have the skills to be passed safely. More than anything else I recall about running PDX is that many drivers don't know what's behind them.

I would vote yes for running both days.

[zpeed]

I want to run both PDX and CT. :(

[Dean]

I want to run both PDX and CT. :(There are a number of conflicts with running bin both PDX and one of the competition groups.

1. Unfair competition. If a competitor gets additional practice, tuning, etc. time on race day than other drivers, is that really fair?

2. Competition drivers "practicing" at 10+/10ths vs. PDX drivers at 6-8/10ths.

3. Possible insurance implications to PDX drivers

4. TT drivers torn between instructing and additional "practice".

There are others, but those are the biggies.

[MikeK]

I want to run both PDX and CT. :(

I do NOT want to see CT drivers in the PDX groups. If you are doing PDX odds are that your motivation is just to drive you car faster than what you can on the street, and maybe get a little instruction on lapping at a real race course.

That doesn't mean that you want to race or be around people who are racing. In a PDX group should should be going no more than 7-8 tenths of the car's capability. People in CT and TT will be going 9 or 10 tenths.

I haven't attended any events for a long time now because they allowed transponders in the PDX groups. Mixing CT drivers in would be the same thing to me.

[sperry]

I do NOT want to see CT drivers in the PDX groups. If you are doing PDX odds are that your motivation is just to drive you car faster than what you can on the street, and maybe get a little instruction on lapping at a real race course.

That doesn't mean that you want to race or be around people who are racing. In a PDX group should should be going no more than 7-8 tenths of the car's capability. People in CT and TT will be going 9 or 10 tenths.

I haven't attended any events for a long time now because they allowed transponders in the PDX groups. Mixing CT drivers in would be the same thing to me.
I agree. PDX and trials are very different in terms of goals. I truly think that PDX should be able to stand on its own as a program in our region, assuming we can build up a participant base. Trials can stand on its own as a program as well, IMO. Putting the two together should be done only to save costs on track rental fees... i.e. they share nothing but the date and location of the event.

The only crossover I think should happen, is if trials competitors also volunteer as instructors. Then I'm all for the instructors taking their trials cars out in the instructor's session with students in the passenger seat. It's fun for both driver and passenger, and gives the trials drivers some extra seat time in their own car as payment for helping out with the students. But I don't think we can do that without splitting the event across two days as I outlined earlier, where PDX w/ instruction is on Sat, and Trials with PDX lapping sessions is on Sun. We don't want the trials folks running around like crazy trying to instruct, practice, and race all at the same time.

[S2kreno]

What ARE the insurance implications re: PDX anyway? I was told that as long as the speeds aren't "excessive" whatever that means (AAA has no definition of excessive), that there are no obstacles, and that the event isn't timed then it's driving school which is covered and not racing which isn't. So if someone else is being timed even if I'm not does that negate my coverage? If this is the case than we should have club racing for those who care about their times but I can't see any reason to allow PDXers to have transponders in their cars. There's a huge downside and almost no upside for drivers.

[Kevin M]

Transponders of any kind are no longer allowed at PDX under Reno SCCA.

[zpeed]

I want to run both PDX and CT. :(

I just want more seat time and it's a little cheaper to run both. My wife does not let me come out and play to offen.

1. Unfair competition. If a competitor gets additional practice, tuning, etc. time on race day than other drivers, is that really fair?

Do SCCA offer run no point for CT? Anyway, I think I will run PDX for this one.

[Dean]

What ARE the insurance implications re: PDX anyway?I am not an insurance agent or a lawyer so my opinion does not count. I suggest to anyone who competes in these events to closely review the "exclusions" portions of their policies. Different companies have different language in these sections.

Some exclude timed and/or competitive events, others exclude based on location of the event, etc... Your mileage may vary.

TT Rules section 3.1 is very clear related to the intended purpose of PDX.

PERFORMANCE DRIVING EXPERIENCE (PDX) - Level 1
Level 1 events are non-competitive and are based on the instruction and practice of performance driving and car handling.

3.1.5 makes it clear on timing:

Timing of PDX events is not allowed. This includes any personal timing devices. Video and/or data acquisition systems are allowed for instructional purposes only and shall not violate the intent of this rule.

So, read your policy and make your own interpretation/determination. Your agent may or may not be a useful resource as well. Just remember they are mostly sales people. (No offense intended) They do not write the policies or approve claims.

[AlexR]

Dean, doesn't that rule on timing in PDX basically exclude anyone from Ever having an In car recording of their session(s)? as its really easy to watch a video and turn on a stop watch (or just write down the time in the video) where your car crosses a certain mark?


I do that with my helmet cam on my Rally Cross fun runs where there is no timing but i want to see how fast i went. anyone using any in car video could do the same. :confused:

[sperry]

Dean, doesn't that rule on timing in PDX basically exclude anyone from Ever having an In car recording of their session(s)? as its really easy to watch a video and turn on a stop watch (or just write down the time in the video) where your car crosses a certain mark?


I do that with my helmet cam on my Rally Cross fun runs where there is no timing but i want to see how fast i went. anyone using any in car video could do the same. :confused:
The rule is pretty specific about allowing in-car camera:

Video and/or data acquisition systems are allowed for instructional purposes only and shall not violate the intent of this rule.

[tahoe z]

hi, can you clarify that you need a transponder to run tt and is there open passing in tt,sorry im so dumb,but i would assume there would be open passing in tt,thank you very much !

[Dean]

Yes, you need a transponder but they are available for rental.

Passing is not open and is restricted to the straights.

[scarabracer]

When we first started doing the PDX's and solo trials the club made the event 2 driver car friendly. Since it has changed and a 2 driver car can no longer participate in one or the other. I hope to see the trials and PDX's become more 2 driver friendly again, we would be out for every event and there's two of us - that's 2 more people paying that haven't attended in almost 2 years.

[Dean]

When we first started doing the PDX's and solo trials the club made the event 2 driver car friendly. Since it has changed and a 2 driver car can no longer participate in one or the other. I hope to see the trials and PDX's become more 2 driver friendly again, we would be out for every event and there's two of us - that's 2 more people paying that haven't attended in almost 2 years.We regularly have 2 driver cars at PDX and have had them mixed PDX and TT I believe. What are you specifically referring to?

[scarabracer]

We would both like to run the solo1 event. We do not have much interest in the P.d.x. I dont see how we could make it happen without one of us running the p.d.x.

[Dean]

We would both like to run the solo1 event. We do not have much interest in the P.d.x. I dont see how we could make it happen without one of us running the p.d.x.I think you mean Time Trials, not Solo 1. I believe we still have 2 TT race groups as well as a CT group. 2 driver cars should not be a problem unless you both want to participate in CT.

[scarabracer]

What is CT? We have not been at the trials for almost 2 years as I mentioned earlier?? Last yeat tho, we were planning on going but when we saw the new schedule and how the run groups were laid out, it was not possilbe to run a 2 driver car. I had much discussion with Dave on the subject and the only solution was to share the track time and have to pull out mid race and switch.

[scarabracer]

The club trials, are they new this year?? I don't see a schedule for how the event runs as we did last year. Last year the way the run groups were scheduled it made it nearly impossible for us to run the trials. Where can we look at the breakdown of the event and groups.

[dsmith]

At the April event we had one Club Trial run group and two Time Trial run groups Jeff; if you're thinking of running the Z you'd want to be in Time Trials I'd think - unless you don't want to do all the safety gear and suit stuff.

If you ran Club, then yes you'd be out of luck as there don't seem to be enough cars for two run groups - one would need to be in Club and the other in Time Trials.

[Dean]

I just talked to Christa and they will talk to Dave some time after this weekend about it.

[S2kreno]

We regularly have 2 driver cars at PDX and have had them mixed PDX and TT I believe. What are you specifically referring to?

Jeff and I did the 2 driver thing last time but one of us didn't get to drive in the last group because it was combined. So you don't both get the complete X in the PDX the way things are now.

[Dave Deborde]

Yes, you need a transponder but they are available for rental.

Passing is not open and is restricted to the straights.


Passing is restricted to passing zones but a careful read of the rules reveals that it does not actually specify that it is restricted to "straights".

We need to have events that are safe and free from body contact, remember these cars may have only a rollbar not a full cage. I would not be comfortable allowing passing in the esses between turns 1 & 2 at Reno-Fernley Raceway for example. Full unrestricted passing should be limited to Club Racing, IMHO.

Dave Deborde

I have no idea how this got attached to this thread!!

[Dave Deborde]

When we first started doing the PDX's and solo trials the club made the event 2 driver car friendly. Since it has changed and a 2 driver car can no longer participate in one or the other. I hope to see the trials and PDX's become more 2 driver friendly again, we would be out for every event and there's two of us - that's 2 more people paying that haven't attended in almost 2 years.

Jeff, I got Christa's phone message and called back but haven't heard from you yet. I added a second Track Trials group last year so that 2 drivers could enter one car. You two are a big part of the reason we made that change but we haven't seen you yet-so come on out and enjoy a day at the track.

Let me give a very brief overview of the SCCA Time Trials program. It consists of four levels of events:

Level 1 is the non-competitive PDX. PDX (Performance Driving Experience) is intended for drivers that wish to drive on a track or high speed course in street legal or cars prepared up to Solo Street Prepared. Instruction is an important part of PDX. Safety equipment requirements are similar to Solo however rollbars or approved alteranative roll over protection is required in open topped cars. Speeds are controlled in turns thru instruction and observation. Timing is not allowed.

Level 2 (Club Trials) is an entry level competition. Car preparation rules are like Solo or PDX. Timing is allowed and transponders are required for drivers wishing to receive times and compete in the Reno Region Club Trials Championship series. Because cars are allowed with minimal roll over protection, we limit CT to course configurations that do not use the long front straight at RFR.

Level 3 (Track Trials) is the highest level of track competition without going wheel-to-wheel racing. Additional safety equipment is required including an approved rollbar or a roll cage in formula cars and some "specials" and a drivers suit and Snell SA2000 or newer helmet are required. Take a look at the 2008 Time Trials Rules at http://www.scca.com under the Club Racing tab for additional information. In addition, a Time Trials Novice Permit or Time Trials Competition License, or approved alternate, is required.

Level 4 is Hillclimb. We are not currently doing hillclimbs in the Reno Region but could in the future if there is interest.

With the level of preparation on your car, you and Christa could run in Track Trials in different groups but you will both need approved driving suits and licenses. You can apply for Novice Permits prior to the next event. You need to fill out a medical history form, available on the SCCA website, but have three months(I think) to get a physical exam and have your Dr fill out the Medical Exam form. You also have the option for one of you to run in CT and one in TT; or one could run in PDX and one in CT if you want to avoid the license thing. One additional note, you will need two separate transponders, one for each of you if both wish to run in CT/TT and transponders or other timing devices are not allowed in PDX.
Rental transponders cost $25 each and we include a quick change mount bracket so you can change transponders when you change drivers. Even though you are driving one car, two full entries are required.
A generic entry form is on this website along with the event schedule from the April 26 event. I just requested the event sanction so haven't posted the July 19 event specific information until we have the sanction secured.

Give me a call and we can discuss further. My cell phone number is 775-450-1394 and home phone is 775-267-4845.

Dave Deborde