FS RFR $39 mil

[zpeed]

Should I put this in Classifieds section?
http://www.loopnet.com/xNet/Mainsite/Listing/Profile/Profile.aspx?LID=16496095&SourceCode=1lir2t003&Linkcode=17830&sourcecode=1laf0tc02511008

[dsmith]

Maybe if we offered them $20 million. . .?

[sperry]

Wow, that's quite a bit pricier than I would have expected... I figured < $1/sqft would have been appropriate.

But then again, I know zilch about property.

[Skyhorse]

maybe we could buy it one sq. foot at a time . $1.75 a foot how long could that take?. By the way thats 3 times what the dirt under my house is worth

[S2kreno]

You'd have to clear $7,200 a day just to pay the nut on that sucker. They'll be lucky to get half of what they're asking.

[BillH]

Wow, that's quite a bit pricier than I would have expected... I figured < $1/sqft would have been appropriate.

But then again, I know zilch about property.


I saw this a couple months ago and that was my first thought, $38mil??

If you take a guess and say the 2 tracks are worth $10mil, that still comes out to $57,000 an acre. Land over the hill in Stagecoach,etc. is $7,500 an acre or less.

[Dean]

Even at $10K/acre, land is only worth $5Mil. At a mil$/mile of asphalt 5mi+- * 2 lanes, you have another $10mil. even if you say average 3 lanes wide, = $15mil.

The problem is that to make it a going concern IMHO, it reality it needs some of the asphalt torn up, regrading, drainage, new asphalt = at least $5mil+ and a mil or so in facilities upgrades.

To really do it right, you also need an access road and a sunset straight pit lane/paddock.

[S2kreno]

The problem is that to make it a going concern IMHO, it reality it needs some of the asphalt torn up, regrading, drainage, new asphalt = at least $5mil+ and a mil or so in facilities upgrades.

To really do it right, you also need an access road and a sunset straight pit lane/paddock.

And real restrooms and showers. An air conditioned lounge for racers to hang out in. Showers. Lockers to leave your stuff in. And SHOWERS! Yes, I'm a sweaty dog. :oops:

[dsmith]

You'd need to get the track for free and put the $20-30 mill into upgrades and improvements. I don't see anyone who has a brain buying it, unless they have very, very deep pockets. Of course, you could just wait for it to come up at auction.

[BillH]

All the upgrades would be great, restrooms, showers repaving but you won't get that back in track bookings. The quality of the track isn't as much of a problem as the location. (Location,Location,Location in real estate terms).
Reno just doesn't have enough population to make this track a decent income producer.

Tow time from Sac and the Bay Area isn't bad but they have 3 other tracks to choose from.

And the uprgades would boost track fees to where everyone would be complain' constantly.

Ever price a test day at Sears Point? It's close to $400.

No one's going to buy this track and the upgrades without looking at the business model and when they do, they would see that the upgrades are too expensive.

The 3 tracks to the west are beautiful but someone spent big corporate bucks for 2 of them.
Laguna's million dollar redo was paid by Yamaha to get Moto GP there.
Sears was upgraded millions by Nascar. Sears wouldn't be what it is without that. I remember Sears offering us free test days in the "Pave The Point" deal,they didn't have the funds to do it themselves.

ThunderHill was financed thru SCCA somewhat, had huge donations and the region had us pay a $50 track building fee for years on every race entry before they could build. ThunderHill has been very successful. They also don't give SFRSCCA members much of a break for using "Our track".

[Dean]

Racers don't need restrooms. they are a plus, but very low on racer's priorities. Thill did not have them for what, 10 years?

I agree on Location wholeheartedly, but Reno could support it if it were in Stead, or anywhere <20-30 minutes from major Reno hotels, it would have a much better chance.

If it had a flat drag strip, it would have a MUCH better chance. I hate to say it, but if you are trying to build a motorsports park, a decent drag strip should probably be the first thing you build from an cost vs. income perspective.

[BillH]

Racers don't need restrooms. they are a plus, but very low on racer's priorities. Thill did not have them for what, 10 years?


Yea, at least 10. Even now, if your pit is up by pre-grid, do you walk that far ? Or walk 20 feet to the plastic box? :rolleyes: They do have the best showers though, but you have to get to them at 6:00 a.m. to avoid the line.

I remember when ButtonWillow built restrooms and announce that they had showers. The shower was a pipe sticking thru an outside wall with a shower head. It was pretty cold taking a shower in the wind.

[S2kreno]

Racers don't need restrooms.
Spring Mountain has restrooms. And a swimming pool :) And massages. And billiards. And A/C. And SHOWERS!!!! All I want is running water and air that's less than 100 degrees, jeez.

RFR probably needs at least a hotel since it's in the freaking weeds.

[Kevin M]

Spring Mountain is more of a luxury resort than a racetrack if you're fair about it. :lol:

[Dean]

Spring Mountain has restrooms. And a swimming pool :) And massages. And billiards. And A/C. And SHOWERS!!!! All I want is running water and air that's less than 100 degrees, jeez.Um, Spring Mountain had nothing but 2 white fabric buildings with no HVAC for the longest time, just like THill.

Again, it had a good/great track, and a steady source of income in it's Corvette/Camero School.

[S2kreno]

Um, Spring Mountain had nothing but 2 white fabric buildings with no HVAC for the longest time, just like THill.

Again, it had a good/great track, and a steady source of income in it's Corvette/Camero School.

Yup, and it updated itself with an awesome 8000 sq foot setup for only $3 million. Surely RFR could come up with a freaking locker room, shower, and bathrooms for a fraction of that. They could charge monthly dues for track time and facilities. But the sales price has got to be knocked way down.

[AlexR]

ThunderHill was financed thru SCCA somewhat, had huge donations and the region had us pay a $50 track building fee for years on every race entry before they could build. ThunderHill has been very successful. They also don't give SFRSCCA members much of a break for using "Our track".

Still Kills me they were Raping the Sac SCCA RallyX chapter for use the large field in front think they wanted something like $500 day at one point making it one of the most expensive venues the Rally Crossers use. its all SCCA they should let the damn rally Crossers use it for free or a profit sharing % :mad:

I know the track is owned by the SFR Track division and not autox/rallyx but they still seem to have the wrong attitude towards their "fellow" Scca racers

[Kevin M]

Alex, you're missing the part where all facilities have costs involved. Nobody can run anywhere for free, and $500 a day is peanuts compared to an autocross site.

[BillH]

Alex, I know how you feel but really agree with Kevin. $500 is really a low fee and they do have a few expenses when they put on a R/C. If 20 guys are competing, that's only $25 each. That's really inexpensive.
If you take your ATV to Sand Mountain, it's $40 IIRC.
It basically costs more than that to use the Kart track in Stead (yea,I know it's a pavement course).
I think the Auto-X guys/gals here get a huge "bang for the buck", but they still have to rent the asphalt.

I think T-Hill could do a little better on cutting ths SRF members a bit of a break. That's why I don't instruct there much. But, T-Hil is (and should be) a "for profit" separate entity from the region. At least they will survive thru this economy where RFR didn't.

I took a look at test day costs at Sears again, they're up to $525 a day, geeze.

[AlexR]

Actually $500 a Day is the most the northern california Rally crossers have paid for a venue and usually that kills it off . Prarie city charges us 10% of the gross which is often about 150-200 a day

We still need insurance 8 per car per weekend 20 guys = $160
we are required water truck that we have to rent from them @ $500 a day
AND THEN they want $500 a day to use the "front yard"
that's 1160 with 20 people trying to cover it ?

so we have to charge $58 to break even which hurts turn out. esp when we mention the non scca members really have to pay $73

Thunderhill hasn't been used for rallyX since 08 , they've priced us out. Sucks it was a national tour event in 06. but now "they" have ruined all that. :mad:

I'm not talking about their track or anything inside of their Main gate.
we are talking about their front lawn.

3 Points
----------
1) We don't need to go inside of the Thunder Hill facility , they open the Gate to the large field that's next to their driveway. we use a port a potty outside which i'm sure is a cost to them (easily offset by their water truck fee, or the concessions we buy from them)
2) Thunder Hill is already open on the weekend charging a track group enough money to cover all their operating costs for the day.
3) Rally cross is struggling to stay viable , You'de think Fellow SCCA members would want to help out other racers, isn't the SCCA non profit?


lol oh ya.. lil Off topic, sum it up as my "Grumble Grumble" about T-hill is actually justified in light of what Prarie city OHV does for us compared to an SCCA owned property.

[Kevin M]

Sounds like the problem is lack of participation, not being "priced out." We couldn't run a profitable autocross with 20 drivers either.

[S2kreno]

Rally X sounds fun. Any events for beginners?

[AlexR]

Yeppers , we don't have much established for a nor cal schedule yet, probably going to be a few events in Sac, and MAYBE one in T-hill but i think paul eklund moved that to valejo.

[MPREZIV]

...
2) Thunder Hill is already open on the weekend charging a track group enough money to cover all their operating costs for the day.



Nissan of Reno is already open, and charging other customers enough to cover operating costs, so I should work on your car for free then, based on this logic.

I understand your gripe dude, but it's just not how it works.

[dsmith]

With all the empty lonesome around here, why don't you guys organize a RallyX event for Northern Nevada? If you allow pickups, you should have plenty of runners.

[AlexR]

Nissan of Reno is already open, and charging other customers enough to cover operating costs, so I should work on your car for free then, based on this logic.

I understand your gripe dude, but it's just not how it works.

yep apples to apples .. Nissan is for profit and the SCCA is a non profit? Or maybe i'm wrong and its a for profit organization that's Publicly traded and they have to think of their share holders? oh that's only nissan right?

Dsmith

SCCA insurance won't cover trucks. :( Nasa does but nasa insurance is a flat rate I think $400 ish? SCCA will cost non members an extra $15 hurting turn out.

it is per weekend so if you have a 2 day event and lots of cars its good. someone had the break down of when its cheaper to use nasa or SCCA and i seem to think the magic number was 48 but maybe it was in the low 50s

Basically the solutions are make sure you have 50+ people willing to sign up for your fist event.

or find super super cheap venues (like the prairie city OHV who will work off of 10% gross)

I just don't get why T-hill can't do something like that, hell we could offer them $100 flat and 100% of the net profits , but they don't want that cause they know our turn out is low... anyone else see this going round and round?

the short of it is the SFR SCCA region (Non profit?? i'm confused) is in a position to help with out incurring any costs , and with out being exposed to an Uninsured liability, but doesn't want to help. Which is their right of course, but consider what the SCCA is for ... i just find it ****ty.

Its not like i'm asking the EPA , Nissan, or some other organization that has nothing to do with racing for help. (but those other organizations would probably be more helpful!)

[AlexR]

all in all i'll probably try putting on a rallyx event and i'll just expect to loose a few hundred on it. I know of 2 different sites around spanish springs, and wadsworth, but those locations will further hurt turn out... but both the land owners are willing to do a profit sharing (even with me telling them chances are slim they will get cash) i'll just have to see if i need a water truck at their locations.. (extra $500 if needed) :(

[nmhansen]

Alex, as far as I know, the SCCA is a not-for-profit. The only non-profit (charity) portion of SCCA is the SCCA Foundation.

Again, they still have to worry about their bottom line. They aren't a charity and they still have to make enough money to cover operating costs.

[sperry]

Alex, as far as I know, the SCCA is a not-for-profit. The only non-profit (charity) portion of SCCA is the SCCA Foundation.

Again, they still have to worry about their bottom line. They aren't a charity and they still have to make enough money to cover operating costs.
Except Thunderhill itself is a for-profit organization. SCCA may have gotten the place started, but the track is there to make money.

Also, Rallycross does allow trucks, unless I'm not reading the rules correctly:

6.1 ELIGIBLE VEHICLES
A RallyCross event is open to any fixed-roof production based vehicle (including convertibles with a factory hardtop attached, targa-types with factory panel in place, t-tops with factory panels in place) that can pass safety inspection. If the Event Chairman after consultation with the Event Safety Steward determines at his discretion that a vehicle cannot safely negotiate the course, it may be excluded.

Compare that to the Solo rules, where SUVs/trucks are excluded:

3.1 ELIGIBLE VEHICLES
A Solo event is open to any vehicle that can pass safety inspection, has the minimum bodywork specifi ed by these Rules, and is properly muffled, except that vehicles with wheelbases exceeding 116” may be excluded by the Event Chairman if he determines, at his discretion, that they cannot readily negotiate the course. This decision shall be made in advance if possible and included in the advance publicity and supplementary regulations. Cars need not be licensed or licensable for road use, so long as they otherwise comply with these Rules.

Cars designated as being of a model year later than the current year are not eligible to compete in Divisional, Tour, or Solo National Championships, unless they have been specifically classed by the SEB. A newly-classed model or option package is not eligible for the current year’s Solo National Championships unless its listing was published no later than the July issue of the offi cial SCCA publication.

Unstable vehicles with a high center of gravity and a narrow track, including SUV’s, minivans, and 4WD pickups, must be excluded. (See “Guidelines from the SSC” at the end of Appendix E.) Examples of such vehicles are listed in Appendix A. Extra caution should be exercised with non-traditional vehicles, e.g. trucks using racing slicks.

Physically disabled drivers may use alternate vehicle controls and preparation items appropriate for the nature of their disability. In the case of a driver using alternate controls, extra care should be taken to ensure that the driver does have adequate control of the vehicle, and that the control mechanisms can stand up to competition use. A waiver from the SCCA Solo Department is required for the use of such equipment in Divisional and National events. Requests will be handled on a case-by-case basis.

[Dave Deborde]

Yeppers , we don't have much established for a nor cal schedule yet, probably going to be a few events in Sac, and MAYBE one in T-hill but i think paul eklund moved that to valejo.

Alex, how about helping organize a RallyCross up here? Scott Knauf might have a site but he isn't familiar enough with RallyCross to know for sure. You are probably our only member with experience so your help would surely be required if we were to attempt to host one.

Las Vegas Region does RallyCross and they have a car that is shared by the drivers. That might work here until enough people get hooked enough to get a suitable car/truck. We may have a source for a car or two that could work. I guess a couple large issues would be a water truck and equipment to grade out the course.

Send Scott a message if you think you might be interested. I think it would be a blast but have no idea how much interest there might be. You can find Scott's email in the contact list on this website.

Dave Deborde

[Dave Deborde]

Alex, how about helping organize a RallyCross up here? Scott Knauf might have a site but he isn't familiar enough with RallyCross to know for sure. You are probably our only member with experience so your help would surely be required if we were to attempt to host one.

Las Vegas Region does RallyCross and they have a car that is shared by the drivers. That might work here until enough people get hooked enough to get a suitable car/truck. We may have a source for a car or two that could work. I guess a couple large issues would be a water truck and equipment to grade out the course.

Send Scott a message if you think you might be interested. I think it would be a blast but have no idea how much interest there might be. You can find Scott's email in the contact list on this website.

Dave Deborde

Another thought, there may be some open dirt areas at Stead Airport that Skip would let us use. There is a lot of unused space out where the old road course used to be and there is an abandoned runway out there also that might work for a paddock area. Just a thought. How large an area is required for a small event?

Dave