CT Course configuration

[Gary]

Would it be possible to request the Club Trials course not cross the dusty infield and aim toward the concrete unpadded barrier at the starters tower?
Last year there were some very expensive cars to potentially repair in this group. Altho I don't know of anyone who hit it, it's a sourse of stress I'm sure most drivers could do without every lap. Maybe it's just me, I guess I'll find out.
From a medical point of view, I would rather treat the anxiety reaction of a driver who spins out into the runoff silt at the end of the straight than a driver who hits that barrier at speed and at an angle which negates the effectiveness of the shoulder strap.
Just curious, I'm sure like everything else, its not a simple as that and there are rules and regulations to follow. Thanks.

[Mel Torme]

There has been a lot of debate on that. As I recall the objective was to keep speeds resonable by eliminating the long front straight, where the high HP cars could easily reach 125MPH+ in CLUB trials. This is tough call for the Stewards, nobody wants to see a car wrecked, or worse yet, a driver injured. In this sport, regardless of hard you work to eliminate the danger, it's always there. I personally prefer using the main straight, yet I know there will ultimately be a very serious high speed off.

I questioned my abilities when I drove my stock C6 vette in club trials at 125+ w/o any safety gear beyond stock. If you analyze the distance a 3300 lb car can slide or flip at 125mph you begin to realize how many ugly things can happen. When you actually see it happen, it's beyond sobering!

Does the proximity of the wall at the starter tower have an influence on a drivers level of confidence, and hence his speed/control?? PROBABLY, but is it SAFER? Does the lack of any stationary objects at the end of the main straight lull a driver to unknowingly attain speeds that invite catastrophic results? PROBABLY, but is it SAFER?

I'm sure there are more experianced drivers on here with interesting and informative viewpoints.

[S2kreno]

They let PDXers use the whole straight. And some of us have fast cars. And some of us kinda suck. And no one said "don't go faster than 100mph or whatever." Don't get any ideas, Dean :)

[zpeed]

My slow PDX car hit 120 before the turn once. Normally I lift at 100 then let it cruise til the turn 1. Which is about 85-90.

[Dean]

There is risk/danger in everything related to motorsports, and those only increase when you add competition to the mix.

We do our best within the rules and the facility to mitigate those for each group.

PDX is supervised and focused on skills, not speed and timing is not allowed. Specific to turn 1, I and the other instructors regularly encourage students to slow well before it to work on using partial throttle through the esses to maintain drive line engagement and to keep the weight on the rear tires. We focus on line and skills, not speed, especially in that corner. Instructors and course workers also keep an eye on PDX drivers and alert staff of unsafe actions.

A driver by signing up for CT has stated a desire to be timed and compete with at least themselves and the clock if not other drivers. That desire may cloud one's judgment, so by rule, speeds are kept below those of TT. The turn you refer to onto the front straight is coned to encourage a late apex which minimizes lateral speed in proximity to the wall. The alternative really is to not offer CT as we only have timing loops on the front straight and using the full length is just not an option under the rules.

I realize there are all sorts of scenarios and circumstances that could raise issues with either group and both configurations and that nothing is perfect much less perfectly safe. Know that the event staff has considered many options and do the best they can within the rules and other constraints upon them.

[newbie911]

I was told that my car could take turn one at 140mph and to "work up" to that. And that was my first PDX event ever. That was a little spooky, even when I only reached 120 plus on the straight, then backed down for turn one! Again, it's all common sense isn't it?

[Dean]

I was told that my car could take turn one at 140mph and to "work up" to that. And that was my first PDX event ever. That was a little spooky, even when I only reached 120 plus on the straight, then backed down for turn one! Again, it's all common sense isn't it? You hit the nail on the head. You are building skills, confidence, and using your head.

And EVERYONE, stop looking at your bloody speedometers at the fastest point on the track right before the fastest turns!!! :rolleyes: Eyes ahead looking where you are going thinking about line and smoothness, not speed. :)

Instructors are not saying to drive through that corner at 140 necessarily, but trying to help students overcome fear and build confidence. Confidence in their car and their skills is what protects drivers. Mid-corner fear or trepidation is what can get you in the most trouble.

May have to work with instructors to be clear that we are not setting speed goals, only skills goals and to be clear when discussing speeds that they are indicative of what may be possible, not necessarily an objective. Thanks for the feedback.

[Cadex]

I concur with Gary in that staring at the concrete wall at start/finish in CT is not fun. I can also understand the need to keep safety as priority one. Not sure I follow the PDX being as safe on the full TT course though albeit for the driver or instructor.

Anyway for CT...is it possible to run a different configuration down the front straight and turn left at the cutover. This would be a modified version of course F or D, keep speeds down, limit off track excursions to sagebrush and rocks? Any overshoot would impale a cone rather than the wall. Of course, timing and scoring would need to be moved further south down front straight to accomodate all classes.

Just a thought to consider and a means of changing things up a bit.

[solonut]

I concur with Gary in that staring at the concrete wall at start/finish in CT is not fun. I can also understand the need to keep safety as priority one. Not sure I follow the PDX being as safe on the full TT course though albeit for the driver or instructor.

Anyway for CT...is it possible to run a different configuration down the front straight and turn left at the cutover. This would be a modified version of course F or D, keep speeds down, limit off track excursions to sagebrush and rocks? Any overshoot would impale a cone rather than the wall. Of course, timing and scoring would need to be moved further south down front straight to accomodate all classes.

Just a thought to consider and a means of changing things up a bit.

No timing loop for scoring....

[BillH]

You hit the nail on the head. You are building skills, confidence, and using your head.

And EVERYONE, stop looking at your bloody speedometers at the fastest point on the track right before the fastest turns!!! :rolleyes: Eyes ahead looking where you are going thinking about line and smoothness, not speed. :)



Absolutely, what Dean's saying in both posts is correct. PDX is about building skills. That's why they're not timed.

"I was told that my car could take turn one at 140mph and to "work up" to that. And that was my first PDX event ever."

First, Did an instructor tell you this? If so, we need to talk to him.
Secondly, No, your car won't do 140 into that turn which makes the remark even worse, if an instructor is saying things like this to a new driver, we have a problem.

Dean, with the push towards licensing the instructors, I think it's time to instruct the instructors. It's not going to be easy due to the time constraints of our events but I feel it's necessary.

Gary & Chris, you concerns are legitimate. But due to the placement of the timing loops, this is going to be tough to fix. I'm sure everybody's very willing to discuss it further.

[Cadex]

Not trying to stir anything up. Agree 100% to keep things safe and was offering an alternative solution for consideration. If it is too much hassle for timing and scoring so be it. Is the timing similar to what is used in solo? If so, how would moving timing further south down the front straight (say 100 feet or so south from start tower)...just so long as it is before the CT new proposed left turn in. This is still on the front straight used by TT.

[newbie911]

BillH, contact me for details if you want because I don't want to "hijack the thread" from the OP, so we should probably keep the discussion on the CT course, etc.

P.S. Thanks for the concern and I do agree!

[solonut]

Not trying to stir anything up. Agree 100% to keep things safe and was offering an alternative solution for consideration. If it is too much hassle for timing and scoring so be it. Is the timing similar to what is used in solo? If so, how would moving timing further south down the front straight (say 100 feet or so south from start tower)...just so long as it is before the CT new proposed left turn in. This is still on the front straight used by TT.

Chris...we use scoring loops imbedded in the rack.....if you look at the track suface buy the start/finish you will see them

[BillH]

Not trying to stir anything up. Agree 100% to keep things safe and was offering an alternative solution for consideration.

You're not stiring, Chris, club member input is important.

As Pat said the timing loops are in the asphalt and pick up the signal from your transponder as you cross over them. The solo timing system uses a light beam that you break at the start and the finish.

[Dean]

I do not know what they are doing for Lemons, but the thought of turning left at the crossover is scary as well.

Remember, that turn onto the front straight is how the course was originally configured. 1 mileish oval with squiggles on each side. That corner is on camber and has a smooth pavement transition. And there are much more perilous concrete walls on most every other West coast track.

The left turn off off the long straight to cross the infield is not so friendly. The pavement transition is very uneven and off-camber. I don't think it would be real safe to try that after 2/3rds to 3/4 of the length of the front straight regardless of timing loop location.

Most importantly, if you are looking/starring at the wall, you are doing it wrong! Your vision should never be anywhere near the wall all the way around that corner. :)

[Cadex]

Thanks for clearing up my confusion as I didn't realize the loops were in buried in the track.

[dsmith]

What about using the long straight for CT but putting a cone chicane in it at the crossover? Is the track too narrow?

[solonut]

What about using the long straight for CT but putting a cone chicane in it at the crossover? Is the track too narrow?

Don...we would have to give you 2 second penalty per cone, for all the cones you would hit......;)

[Dean]

What about using the long straight for CT but putting a cone chicane in it at the crossover? Is the track too narrow?Chicanes are pretty sketchy.

People hit them and then what do you do? Black flag to reset cones?

You don't want people doing any maneuver near people pitting or the beginning of the pit wall or next to the pit wall which leaves nowhere to put it.

I would love to see a PIRish "Festival turn" that goes out into the infield before turn 1 that forces you to drop 40-60MPH and makes turn 1 a real turn... Unfortunately due to the camber, you can't use the crossover for that.

[zpeed]

Replace the cones with a big foam block 3'x4'x8'. Now instead of reset the cone you have a ton of white foam bead fly all over the track.

[S2kreno]

How 'bout an over-sized Dean-replica blow up doll?! Hehe.

[solonut]

How 'bout an over-sized Dean-replica blow up doll?! Hehe.

And watch everone hit it????:lol:

[S2kreno]

Or a life-sized Pat doll....

[solonut]

Or a life-sized Pat doll....

for this comment, I will have special tire pressures just for you.....20lbs front.....44 lbs rear:P.....

[S2kreno]

yikes. okay, i'm sorry, i didn't mean it, and i'll even wash your car. maybe it will be faster without all the dirt :P

[Kevin M]

for this comment, I will have special tire pressures just for you.....20lbs front.....44 lbs rear:P.....

Oh noes! A Miata that's loose? Inconceivable! :p

[Gary]

Is Reno SCCA the only entity to use that configuration? My concern is not just the wall, it's that it's the only unpadded wall cuz no one else uses it, and also that section is dusty, ie slippery. I doubt any drivers look at the wall, but we must glance at the flag tower which sits on the wall and as we complete the turn, we get as close to the wall as we can to carry speed. It a passing zone, but I can rarely pass even a much slower car bcuz it's so short. How many times have we seen a slow car almost come to stop when he politely but misguidedly tries to let cars pass even after the passing zone ends as its a very long distance to the next CT passing zone. CT has such a wide variation in speed all out at the same time, the track just before a passing zone is very precious.
Besides, we did have the full straight at least once and I only recall a few Mustangs go off, Isn't the sagebrush were Mustangs belong?? :)

[S2kreno]

"Dusty" Carpenter went off there as I recall.

[gkull]

I just came back from three days at Infinion. They always run clockwise there. So why not try a CT clockwise and see how it goes.

[vic]

Walls, they are there to save lives. The down side is they destoy cars. I don't like looking into the teeth of that wall while driving my street car either. The good thing is it makes think about it. What i don't think while running the front straight is having a mechanical faiure that could send me straight into that wall at 120mph + or how many times i might roll over hiting the dirt sideways at turn 1 at 120mph+. Less speed is usually less damage and less injury. In the heat of battle we sometimes push beyond the limits of our cars or selves. !f those limits are slower maybe there will be less injury. With the addition of a roll bar and fire suit you can run TT and be a little safer, although it will not reduce the cost of repairing a car. These are just my thoughts on why SCCA does not want us to reach speeds of 120mph + while competing in CT.

[AlexR]

I think a safer solution in regards to that straight away wall is to run it Clock Wise. There may be other corners that lose some safety by this change (or not, just saying its possible)

http://www.scca.com/documents/Club%20Rules/Level1-PDX.pdf

3.1.1 While top speeds are not restricted by these rules, care should be taken to choose courses that do not allow long wide open runs. Speeds may be restricted at the discretion of the TT Course Inspector or Safety Steward, but these restrictions shall be enforced by observation, either by the instructors
in student cars, or by other speed calculation method such as radar (this is not a requirement, and use is at the discretion of the sponsor region).

That's for PDX , there's a less wordy section that says all courses configurations are at the discretion of the Safety Folks.

Guess i get a lil Irked that PDXers can use the entire straight but not CTers. The reasoning of "when you are on the clock you drive harder" does make sense, but it doesn't leave me any less Irked. :unamused: Though i wasn't bothered enough to stop doing CTS. ( but my water pump was :P bad over heating + water pump siezure / head gasket took me out of our CT Program last year)

IIRC that's a 60 mph ish corner on entry, if things start going bad way early and you get on the brakes you won't hit the wall very fast. if things get bad late, your momentum should already be headed mostly away from that way and you also won't get hurt.

If you are looking down the straight away you won't be staring at the wall.

Track exit / Entry may get messed up with a Clockwise rotation. (and maybe the drivers won't be as safe with more Right turns then Left ie harder to gauge distance on the right ) ??

[Dean]

The course is not designed to be run clockwise. Turn 4 becomes terribly unsafe for starters. Pit Wall is now right at track out for turn 1 at somewhere over 60MPH easily. I won't even begin with the top section other than to say 5-9 = death.

We looked at it way back when there was just the HP course.

[MattR]

The course is not designed to be run clockwise. Turn 4 becomes terribly unsafe for starters. Pit Wall is now right at track out for turn 1 at somewhere over 60MPH easily. I won't even begin with the top section other than to say 5-9 = death.

We looked at it way back when there was just the HP course.


Yeah, we ran one session at a test day clockwise years ago and it sucked. The downhill going into the turnaround at the north end was awful. Plus, the curbs are not right.

[Dave Deborde]

Would it be possible to request the Club Trials course not cross the dusty infield and aim toward the concrete unpadded barrier at the starters tower?
Last year there were some very expensive cars to potentially repair in this group. Altho I don't know of anyone who hit it, it's a sourse of stress I'm sure most drivers could do without every lap. Maybe it's just me, I guess I'll find out.
From a medical point of view, I would rather treat the anxiety reaction of a driver who spins out into the runoff silt at the end of the straight than a driver who hits that barrier at speed and at an angle which negates the effectiveness of the shoulder strap.
Just curious, I'm sure like everything else, its not a simple as that and there are rules and regulations to follow. Thanks.

Gary,

A couple points to consider, the cross-over is exposed to the same conditions as the rest of the course. It is all dusty but should not have loose gravel. We will ensure the cross-over is swept before the event.

The course configuration we will use this weekend has the CT cars coming reverse direction on the back straight and then making a 90% turn onto the crossover. we will pinch down the entry turn to minimize the speed that can be maintained entering the crossover. The course will keep the cars along the right edge of the crossover until approximately 150 ft from the front straight wall at which point the course will turn fairly sharpe left. The majority of the turn will occur 150 ft before the wall and will result in a vary late apex at the exit of the cross-over. What we want to avoid is an early turn-in and early apex and then run out of track if the car is to fast. We will take a look at adding a cone chicane on the crossover to hold speed down before exiting the crossover onto the front straight. Or, we can look at entering the crossover at the second turn in which would require a very sharp (greater than 90%) right turn then create a small chicane in the crossover to keep speeds very low.


We have considered just running everything (PDX, CT, TT) on the long front straight and the rules do not prohibit us from doing that however I feel the hazard is to great for cars running at extreme speeds entering the esses. As mentioned in other responses, in PDX the instructor is present to keep speeds at a manageable level.

We also looked at adding a timing loop in the crossover but the pavement is much wider than a loop can accomodate.

A chicane on the front straight is another possibility but that would take significant land fill and additional pavement. Neither the track nor the Reno Region has the money to make that significant change.

Despite the concern, it is interesting that no one has spun exiting the crossover as far as I can recollect in any of our events.

No easy solutions, we want the course to be fun but safe. Will work on some options Friday night.

Dave

[Dave Deborde]

Is Reno SCCA the only entity to use that configuration? My concern is not just the wall, it's that it's the only unpadded wall cuz no one else uses it, and also that section is dusty, ie slippery. I doubt any drivers look at the wall, but we must glance at the flag tower which sits on the wall and as we complete the turn, we get as close to the wall as we can to carry speed. It a passing zone, but I can rarely pass even a much slower car bcuz it's so short. How many times have we seen a slow car almost come to stop when he politely but misguidedly tries to let cars pass even after the passing zone ends as its a very long distance to the next CT passing zone. CT has such a wide variation in speed all out at the same time, the track just before a passing zone is very precious.
Besides, we did have the full straight at least once and I only recall a few Mustangs go off, Isn't the sagebrush were Mustangs belong?? :)

Gary,

Adding tire barriers along the wall would create a hazard for cars running the front straight. As a rule of thumb, you would only use tire barriers were impact would be at 45% to 90%. At lesser angles the car can slide along the wall and absorb energy as it slides. With a tire wall, the car will tend to bury itself and spin violently. I haven't had the pleasure of testing same but that is what the "experts" say.

Dave

[BillH]

Gary,

Adding tire barriers along the wall would create a hazard for cars running the front straight. As a rule of thumb, you would only use tire barriers were impact would be at 45% to 90%. At lesser angles the car can slide along the wall and absorb energy as it slides. With a tire wall, the car will tend to bury itself and spin violently. I haven't had the pleasure of testing same but that is what the "experts" say.

Dave

The other thing with tire barriers is that while they absorb impact and help protect a driver, they still do major damage to the car's bodywork. Most tire barriers are banded together making each section fairly heavy.
I've been into them 3 times at speed, once upside down, the driver was fine, the car was pretty trashed.

[Gary]

thanks for your thoughts and opinions. whatever configuration we run, I'm sure it will be extremely fun and exciting :D