Solo reg changes for 2009?

[jim.gandy]

Y'all are too quiet out there. Let's hear some input on Reno's Solo Supplemental Regulations. Was everybody so happy with the way '08 went that we don't want any changes at all?

How about some sure-fire Hot Button issues:

Tweaking the Street Tire Factor. In '07 it was 0.968. In '08 it was "tightened" to 0.975, making it tougher for a Street Tire car to score well. Is that just fine with everyone? Should we ease it off a little, say to 0.973?

Restructuring (or even getting rid of) the "PAX" competition. With the national PAX numbers getting stranger all the time, and with the problem of Reno's altitude, do enough people still care about PAX to make it meaningful?

Allowing three or more drivers per car. There's a natural conflict between efficient event operation and maximizing entries. With the economy in the toilet, which might lead to fewer entries at our events, is it time to allow more drivers per car?

Enforcing or giving up on the "five-minute" rule. We routinely ignore the national rule about requiring a minimum time between runs, especially when doing so would delay the event. Is it time to make that a formal Reno Region policy?

I'm sure there are other topics out there people would like to vent on. The forum is the place to get it started!

[S2kreno]

Ok,

There needs to be a snow tire factor. So I won't be left in the dust this year when I 'cross my Forester. Or we need to run the early races in snow.

Or we could run some variation on the three driver rule and require that all entries carry three passengers.

PAX should be changed to handicap you according to the amount of money you spend on your car.

Screw the 5 minute rule. When you're working a course and your spit freezes before it hits the ground or your last brain cell is evaporating in a triple-digit afternoon, you want a 20 second rule. Anyone who takes more than 20 seconds to take their turn should be booed off the grid. And they should have to make a beer (or Irish coffee) run and apologize to all.

[MattR]

I would support a change to the street tire factor to .973. Why not.

I don't think we need the 5 minute minimum, sure tires may be a bit warmer, but no different than running back to back with two drivers. Dump it.

[Kevin M]

I would support a reduction of the street tire factor to no less than the .968 it was year before last. Right now it favors race tires a bit too heavily. I think .970 or.971 is a good compromise to see if any street tire drivers can actually be competitive again this season.

I think there's an easy compromise for 3 driver cars and the 5 minute rule. Generally, we have large enough fields that 2 driver cars can get their tire temps under control between runs (maybe not 5 full minutes, but long enough that there seem to be few complaints), but if you want to run 3 drivers, you would waive that rule and be required to take your run immediately upon your turns coming up.

[scarabracer]

I would recommend being careful eliminating the 5 minute rule for a number of reasons. Most high power cars are not cabable of keeping their cool and need time between runs. They are not designed to run w.o.t. for 60 seconds and then shut it down. The biggest issue is coming to a complete stop after max effort and having all your temps go through the roof because you loose all your airflow and have no cool down lap. You may find that you loose almost all of your c-5 drivers as they may fear damaging their engine and trans. However do what you will, I am confident that our car can survive a hot lap style event. The tech guys at Hoosier tell me if I can get another 50 degrees into these tires we will run a second or so faster. :lol:

[scarabracer]

Ok,

There needs to be a snow tire factor. So I won't be left in the dust this year when I 'cross my Forester. Or we need to run the early races in snow.

Or we could run some variation on the three driver rule and require that all entries carry three passengers.

PAX should be changed to handicap you according to the amount of money you spend on your car.

Screw the 5 minute rule. When you're working a course and your spit freezes before it hits the ground or your last brain cell is evaporating in a triple-digit afternoon, you want a 20 second rule. Anyone who takes more than 20 seconds to take their turn should be booed off the grid. And they should have to make a beer (or Irish coffee) run and apologize to all.




I like your suggestion on pax vs. dollars Gina. I get to spend another 20-30k on go fast goodies before we match the cost of the Exge. I would not mind the more favorable pax at all.

[S2kreno]

won't be driving an exige. will be driving a forester.

[scarabracer]

won't be driving an exige. will be driving a forester.

sad times gina. no more exige? what happen.

[S2kreno]

stock market issues. mortgage business issues. medical issues, and bills. exige is for sale at lotus dealer. i miss him terribly but have to take care of business first.

[dknv]

If we gave up on the 5-minute rule, then what would the new rule be? 4 minutes, 3 minutes, go whenever the grid person tells you to go? I'm not initially in favor of eliminating the 5-minute rule, I'd like to leave enforcement (of ignorance of it) informal, with the mindset that conditions may need to dicate an informal ignorance (i.e. Gina's example of course workers waiting in freezing or triple digit temperatures).

Regarding PAX - it's tweaked every year, based on the performance of cars in their classes in certain events and regions; and sometimes the factors don't 'make sense' if you're not aware of some of the data sources, which include national-level drivers and events. Since it seems that 95%+ of our region is not concerned about competing at that level, perhaps we want to change things to make participation in PAX elective.

[S2kreno]

If we gave up on the 5-minute rule, then what would the new rule be? 4 minutes, 3 minutes, go whenever the grid person tells you to go?

Whenever Helen says to go :)

[S2kreno]

Not necessarily WHERE Helen says to go ;)

[Dean]

Regarding PAX - it's tweaked every year, based on the performance of cars in their classes in certain events and regions; and sometimes the factors don't 'make sense' if you're not aware of some of the data sources, which include national-level drivers and events.If only that were true. There is no math, science or statistics behind PAX. It is one man making up numbers based on how he sees the data and what he believes theoretically the future will bring.

PAX is broken and will continue to be until somebody actually uses math and statistics to create a handicaping sytem.

I have no problem publishing PAX results, but think we should abandon PAX season trophies.

[197ASL]

Post the PAX results for those who care to look but we don't need trophies for it.

I think the 5 minute rule should stay. Discretionary exceptions could be made in situations like extreme cold or heat if the 5 minute rule is causing coarse workers to stand around and wait on cars. However, there need to be guidelines on who makes that decision and how to maintain fair competition for all drivers in the class that would be affected by shortening or throwing out the 5 minute rule for a certain event.

[S2kreno]

Fine. But the slow pokes are still responsible for hot or cold drinks for the course workers. And back rubs. And foot massages. We're not all 20 years old ya know.

["A" Stocker]

I think the 5 minute rule is fine as long as it is applied across the board to everyone and no one is singled out. Course Workers being on Course too long falls more on who sent them out to work than how long it takes to run the cars. If you send the course workers out before the cars are tech'd and the cards are sorted(if you use cards), they will be out for atleast 20min. to a 1/2 hour longer than need be. We have started in Sac. to not send out the course workers until the cars are tech'd and cards are close to being sorted and the complaints have went way down. Unbalanced Run Groups will cause workers to be out longer than normal. It is up to the course workers also, don't just come in and grab a radio and be signed off before you need too...

[Dean]

5 minute rule just doesn't make sense in our environment IMHO. 2 driver cars always have hot tires due to our run group sizes. 1 Driver cars seldom do except reruns. Some tires prefer to be hot, others prefer to be cooler.

You go when the grid marshal tells you to.

["A" Stocker]

By getting rid of the 5 minute rule, you open the door to the run group taking all day. If you get rid of the 5 min. rule, now you have to make a rule stating that when the Grid Marshal says go--you have to go. People who run Prepared,Street Prepared and Modified with built motors--probably like the 5 minute rule to let their motors cool down. People running Stock and Street tire probably don't have to wait 5 minutes, unless they are changing driver's. I've come in in the "A Stock" car after a 30sec. run and had temps well over 200deg. and there is no way I'm going back out until the car cools alittle--so in that case 5 min. is very nice.

[Dean]

It is the standard trade off. With our small run groups, on occasion, if we give 2 driver cars the full 5 minutes, we get out of sequence and end up with d driver cars with more than 1 run left per driver when single driver cars are done which isn't fair either. We run into this now even with our unnoficial go when you are called process.

If we ran 2 or 3 run groups, we could probably ensure everyone gets 5 minutes, but then people would have to stay all day which many do not want to do.

We could also run only 3 runs which would give us more grid timing flexibility.

There is no magic to make everyone happy. I do think we should formalize our existing unofficial policies.

["A" Stocker]

One way to cut down on the 5 min. for multi driver cars is to have them be the first car out, then by the time you run 4 or 5 cars they should be ready to go. Run groups size is the biggest determining factor. We have found that anything less than about 25 cars in the run group and your almost always going to end up with the multi-driver car having to make back to back runs. Get the multi-driver cars out first seems to work the best. Until we rebalanced our run groups we had up to (5) 3-4 driver cars in one run group. Dean, your right--can't make everyone happy, but having a better plan makes all the difference....

[MattR]

One way to cut down on the 5 min. for multi driver cars is to have them be the first car out, then by the time you run 4 or 5 cars they should be ready to go. Run groups size is the biggest determining factor. We have found that anything less than about 25 cars in the run group and your almost always going to end up with the multi-driver car having to make back to back runs. Get the multi-driver cars out first seems to work the best. Until we rebalanced our run groups we had up to (5) 3-4 driver cars in one run group. Dean, your right--can't make everyone happy, but having a better plan makes all the difference....


FYI, most of everything you've suggested in this thread is common practice at our events. From two driver cars being the first out to not sending workers out too early... but thanks anyway

[dknv]

I thought I understood the '5 minute rule' as being in place to lessen the possibility that someone may get a tire heat advantage being able to run with warm tires. I just went looking at the 08 Solo Rules to find the wording, and the only place I could find the '5 minute rule' applies to re-runs (7.4). Is this what we're all taking about?

[dknv]

Anyways .... many of the ideas here are talking about what we 'can't' do. How about thoughts for what we Can do? For example, can we get an annual Solo waiver in place, so I don't have to sign the event waiver form every single weekend? We can do this for our minors, so I don't understand why we can't do it for adults.

[Dean]

For example, can we get an annual Solo waiver in place, so I don't have to sign the event waiver form every single weekend? We can do this for our minors, so I don't understand why we can't do it for adults.Done... Check Carol's section of the newsletter under Renewal....

Hard card = no waiver...

[solonut]

Done... Check Carol's section of the newsletter under Renewal....

Hard card = no waiver...

Dean.....re-read Carols article......it says except solo & rally....
"Hard Card which will save you the
necessity of signing a waiver form every time you attend an event except solo & rally events."

[Dean]

Dean.....re-read Carols article......it says except solo & rally....
"Hard Card which will save you the
necessity of signing a waiver form every time you attend an event except solo & rally events."
I liked it better the way I read it... :( Why in the heck doesn't it apply for Solo events?

[solonut]

I liked it better the way I read it... :( Why in the heck doesn't it apply for Solo events?

because its you:P:P

["A" Stocker]

FYI, most of everything you've suggested in this thread is common practice at our events. From two driver cars being the first out to not sending workers out too early... but thanks anyway

I figured as much:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[jim.gandy]

I've received a couple of formal proposals -- let's get them circulating. Remember, the region's Board of Directors is requiring that any proposed new supp has to be already written up in formal language, ready to be added to the supps. Find the current supps in the Documents & Forms section of the website.

This is submitted by Wes Friesen:

2.1. Safety Inspections (Solo Rule 3.3.3)

The following is added to Solo Rule 3.3.3:

2.1.1. Annual Safety Inspection

Annual Safety Inspection will be offered for vehicles of competitors that
have competed in at least one full season of Solo events. The Chief of Tech, Safety Steward or Solo Director may exclude or include any vehicle from the Annual Safety Inspection program. Upon successful completion of the annual safety inspection a Reno Region Solo Annual Tech sticker shall be affixed to any part of the upper left side of the vehicle, including, but not limited to, a roll bar or the corner of the windshield. An annual sticker shall also be affixed to the left side of the driver's helmet. The competitors Solo Rules book or copy of rule book on laptop or printed from internet will be stamped and initialed to indicate successful completion of Annual Tech Inspection.

Wes explains: The last 2 years we have not required a competitor that we know and trust to have the official rule book stamped. We have taken their word that they know the rules.

And this suggestion is from John Evans -- he has expressed interest in developing a battery-powered autocross car.

It may be a while before this is needed but it will not hurt to put it in the supps. Cars like the Prius have a class but if someone builds a fully electric car it will have no place to run competitively so here is my proposal:

3.2 Street Unlimited (SU) and fully electric (FE) car classes
3.2.3 Until enough data is available to class more precisely using such parameters as wattage and weight, FE cars will be classed as follows: FE cars that are street legal as defined in 3.2.2 may compete in SU. FE cars not legal for the street will be classed as follows: FE cars based on a sport racer, formula or custom chassis will compete in AM. FE cars based on a production car chassis and following EM requirements for everything but the engine will compete in EM.

Anybody want to take a crack at a formal proposal regarding the region's ignoring or modifying the 5-minute rule?

Remember, the board will be really grumpy if you wait until March to make your suggestion. You've got a lot better chance of making something happen if you put it forward now.

[Cody]

I would support a reduction of the street tire factor to no less than the .968 it was year before last. Right now it favors race tires a bit too heavily. I think .970 or.971 is a good compromise to see if any street tire drivers can actually be competitive again this season.

Makes sense to me. I'd be happy with a compromise between last year and the year before that...or not, whatever.

Also, I'm not a fan of having to prove I have a rulebook. Maybe just have people prove that they know how to google?

[dsmith]

I would support a reduction of the street tire factor to no less than the .968 it was year before last. Right now it favors race tires a bit too heavily. I think .970 or.971 is a good compromise to see if any street tire drivers can actually be competitive again this season.

+1 for this idea, I'd favor increasing it slightly.

[Dean]

Street tires are likely going to be even better this year and ther have been no changes in R compounds that I am aware of.

The people in the top 10 last year had well prepared cars with good drivers. It was only occasionally that anyone else race tired or street tired broke into that club. As one of the few who did on street tires still in an under prepared car, I see no reason to move to a modifier that favors street tires in any additional manner.

Anybody is welcome to rerun my ST vs. SP '07 Nationals numbers for '08, but I have no real interest in doing so.

[Cody]

Good points Dean. What did your 07 number show?

[Dean]

Good points Dean. What did your 07 number show?Post #7 of the "Street Tires vs. race tires" thread (http://www.renoscca.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10)

[Cody]

Cool.

[jim.gandy]

Here's what the region's board of directors changed in our Solo supps at the 2/4 meeting.

Solo Annual Tech: you must present either a copy of the current national Solo rulebook OR a printout of the cover page (to show you downloaded the rulebook from scca.com).

Classing of non-DOT all-electric vehicles: citing concerns over tech inspection and course worker safety if an accident occurs, the board declined to accept "homebuilt" all-electric vehicles at our Solo events.

Street Tire Handicap Factor: NO CHANGE in the factor for 2009, it stays at 0.975.

PAX championship: Stays for 2009.

"5-minute" rule: There was much discussion about how to regulate the time between a car's runs, and the recurring problem of cars not being ready to go when the normal grid rotation comes around (which can lead to everybody standing around waiting in the cold or heat for one or two cars to complete their runs). The board took some action and will try to take more via e-mail in the next week or two. So far, the board acted to exempt our regional events from the national requirement that five minutes must elapse before a car can take a RERUN. Note that there is no national or regional rule regarding minimum time between normal runs. Board members will be happy to get your input on the rest of the issue.

[Kevin M]

I am unsure exactly what number this would fall under in the supps, but the recommendation I tried to explain at Wednesday's general meeting is as follows:

"Competitors may request a delay between a given vehicle's runs of no more than 5 minutes, barring mechanical issues falling under separate rule, for the purpose of driver prep, tire cooling, etc. The time shall start from completion of the vehicle's previous run and end when the vehicle is leaving its grid space. Grid marshall shall be responsible for determination of elapsed time, and is not required to keep precise timing methods for the purpose of enforcement. Competitors deeming themselves or their vehicle unready to move to the starting line once the grid marshall has determined that their 5 minutes have elapsed shall forfeit that run. Staging and starting of cars shall pause during the balance of the competitor's requested delay. The purpose of this rule is to prevent "stragglers" at the end of the run group causing a delay to the ending of the run group. Grid marshall, at his or her discretion, may permit minor shuffling of the grid order to accommodate delays as they arise, provided the competitor granted the delay does not fall behind the rest of the run group."

Or something like that. The idea is that we wait a minute or two a few times per run group rather than having the course workers and bus sitting around for 20 minutes to finish 3 or 4 runs by one car. Reruns would not fall under this clause as I propose it here, that's a separate issue IMO.